Sentient AI ?

[james03]

A computer can't perceive or reflect.  From a philospher:

Take a kid and raise him in a room.  Teach him when he sees one set of Chinese markings, he must write another set.  Goes on for a decade.  He never hears Chinese speech or is taught what the symbols mean.

The scientists announce they have created AI.  They set up a dummy terminal and invite some Chinese dudes to put it to the test.  So the Chinese dudes type some questions in Chinese, and the kid types back the correct response.  They are amazed at how well the "AI" responded.  However the kid did not perceive what the question was, or his answer.

Perception is immaterial.  Computers are strictly material.  The computers will never wake up and become self aware.

[red solo cup]

A computer can't perceive or reflect.  From a philospher:

Take a kid and raise him in a room.  Teach him when he sees one set of Chinese markings, he must write another set.  Goes on for a decade.  He never hears Chinese speech or is taught what the symbols mean.

The scientists announce they have created AI.  They set up a dummy terminal and invite some Chinese dudes to put it to the test.  So the Chinese dudes type some questions in Chinese, and the kid types back the correct response.  They are amazed at how well the "AI" responded.  However the kid did not perceive what the question was, or his answer.

Perception is immaterial.  Computers are strictly material.  The computers will never wake up and become self aware.
I agree. A computer can only say what has already been loaded into it. I get the feeling this Lamoine guy is a huckster though according to him Google won't let the AI take the Turing Test.
Here's  a version that lets you decide if it's a Bot or a human you're talking to.
https://vixia.fr/turing_test/turing.php

[MaximGun]

By suggesting that computers can think and reason like humans they conflate humans with machines and dehumanize us.

[Elizabeth]

I say H to the No.  God created us in His own likeness and image.

Don't let those demon transhumunists pique curiosity or admiration for their superior demonic intelligence.  It's like UFO's, all demons and nothing good ever comes of it.  This distracts from the hypnosis and mind control of television of countless poor souls.

[Kaesekopf]

It's just demons.

[andy]

A computer can't perceive or reflect.  From a philospher:

Take a kid and raise him in a room.  Teach him when he sees one set of Chinese markings, he must write another set.  Goes on for a decade.  He never hears Chinese speech or is taught what the symbols mean.

The scientists announce they have created AI.  They set up a dummy terminal and invite some Chinese dudes to put it to the test.  So the Chinese dudes type some questions in Chinese, and the kid types back the correct response.  They are amazed at how well the "AI" responded.  However the kid did not perceive what the question was, or his answer.

Perception is immaterial.  Computers are strictly material.  The computers will never wake up and become self aware.

Of course - machines cannot reason in a catholic sense. But you can still teach them to win chess tournaments.

The question is about a sentience though. My cat is sentient yet cannot reason: step on his tail and he will let you know.

Also knowledge itself, which can be coded using 0 and 1, is immaterial. The Bible it immaterial in a specific sense yet can be stored in the computer memory as a sequence of states. It is not that easy as you try to paint it.

[james03]

Information can be coded.  By a sentient being.  A computer can capture knowledge and even work off of it using a decision tree (even a complex one like a neural network), but that ability merely reflects what a sentient being set up.

Computers can never become self aware and aren't even curious.  Cats have an animal soul, and thus have certain immaterial abilities that comport with an animal soul.  A computer has no immaterial soul.  It's a tool.

Let me give you an example.  Google uses AI to flag Youtube videos.  If you say "rape", the channel gets demonetized.  So presenters say "grape".  Humans understand the meaning of this instantly.  The AI misses it.

Another example, we can say "three" or "trois".  The American or the Frenchman are representing a universal, identical thing that exists in the immaterial world.  The computer only can deal with "three" or "trois", because it has no understanding, just as it can only deal with "rape" and not "grape".

[andy]

Let's forget about computers for a second. You cannot deny that our brains are programmed in a certain way. There are TONS of automation built into our bodies, including "software" for handling pain, running in a "waking-wounded mode" after getting injured, all instinct based. It all was created by God, so must be good.

By the way, I somewhat suspect that a soul (whether it is animal, human or floral) has something to do with reproduction functions/instincts.

Is reasoning a function of soul or body/brain?

[james03]

The brain is a highly complex computer.  It even seems to have a timing/clock circuit which we call brain waves.  It really looks like a computer, and it is entirely material.

And it can be used to solve all sorts of problems, some automatic, some intentional and thus is PART of "thinking".  However the result, whether sensing or "thinking" always ends with the same result: a bit code composed of open and closed synapses.  However 10011101001 is not "red", nor "triangle", nor "happy", etc..., which are immaterial.  This is where the soul comes in, which apparently has the ability to read and set neural bit codes, though we are not directly aware of this.  However you can notice it.  When you want to pick something up, it is more like a feeling or "push".  This is your soul setting neural connections when you are intentional.  The brain does this automatically as a result of instinctual programming for things like breathing, and even flight response when danger is recognized before you can even "think" about the danger.  You can program a computer to do the same even though it is not aware of the concept of "danger":  IF nuclear core temperature > 1000F, THEN open dump valve.

Here is an example where the existence of your soul becomes obvious.  Have you ever forgotten a word, and asked someone what it is?  You give a full definition of the word, you know it exists, but you don't know it at the time.  Think of the paradox.  How do you know a word exists when you admit you forgot it?  What is going on is that your soul is aware of the immaterial concept expressed by the word, but has lost the connection with the neural bit code in the brain.  When someone says the word, your soul creates a new bit code in brain memory for it, or pehaps rediscovers the bitcode hiding in the brain.  This shows the connection between soul/immaterial concept and brain/material representation.

Here's another: Thinking is like an internal conversation.  WHO are you talking to?

[andy]

Absolutely. All I wanted to say is that there is more happening on the brain/material/instincts side that we care to think. The soul is the ultimate decision maker while our nervous system is providing the information, the context, "pre-calculated" decisions and possible consequences.

There is a wallet with $2000 in it someone lost. I can take the cash and throw the rest to a river or hand it to the nearest police station. The soul by itself cannot see the options without a body providing them. Mentally challenged people will not never face that actual decisio in spite their soul is perfectly normal. We learn about the world from our senses.

There is a great book https://www.amazon.com/How-Create-Mind-Thought-Revealed/dp/1491518839

[james03]

That's basically a pillar of the Catholic philosophy of Greek Realism.  However without the soul, materialism standing alone becomes absurd.

Which is why AI is absurd.

[andy]

I think you have no idea what you talk about.

It is just becoming a tool like printing 500 ago, forgery 200 years, ago radio 100 years ago and Internet 25 years ago. There is no magic behind it, although for an average person it looks quite mysterious. AI never pretended to become a soul. Yet it can be trained do to quite realistic things, including fighting for energy or cooperating within a group.


https://thispersondoesnotexist.com

[james03]

I think you have no idea what you talk about.

Then it should be easy for you to refute something I wrote.  I'll wait.

I assumed a level of knowledge in you that you apparently don't have.  For example:

All I wanted to say is that there is more happening on the brain/material/instincts side that we care to think. The soul is the ultimate decision maker while our nervous system is providing the information, the context, "pre-calculated" decisions and possible consequences.

My reply:

That's basically a pillar of the Catholic philosophy of Greek Realism.

Google: "Hylomorphism"

[andy]

For the record, I did not know what Hylomorphism is, however after looking it up,  I already observed the concept itself, back in my high school.  I never been into philosophy as such, more physics and math. As we know today, matter as a hard/atomic/indivisible pieces does not exist. It is more a counterpart playing in a theater of law of physics, some kind of interactions in time and space. Some call it waves. There are solitons too.

As a matter of fact, I think that Hylomorphism got 3 principles, law of physics, energy/waves/warmth and meaning (what we call a form Hylomorphism - or an in-format-ion). Almost like in Holy Trinity.

I also would not say that human soul is a mere form in Hylomorphism. Maybe part of it but there is also spiritual ingredient which does not end and is create of image of God. Unlike animals souls, which is essentially a material form. Whoever sat at a deathbed on his friend and witnesses an animal being put down can tell the difference. Former is immortal, later disappears in oblivion of entropy.


Why that distinction? First of all, human souls has 3 faculties associated with its immortality: intellect, will and charity. First is represented by Hope, second Faith and third by Love - it is ability to sacrifice itself for other souls. Those are spiritual "elements". There is obviously no way that AI will in any way "recreate" it. No way. I agree with that.

However, our souls are tied to the body, which interacts with the universe, time and space. All the reasoning and logic built into it. As well as our brains which process inputs, learn how to react and predict. So potentially, it would be possible to raise AI to the level of an animal. This is not easy task, as there is no conventional computer with a sufficient power to even simulate a very simple brain. Hence a lot of AI algorithms specialize in a single task and do that very well. E.g. playing chess. This is super cool.

James, I do not see that thinking in your writing, just simple "AI is an absurd" will not cut it for me. Sorry. I think that you are grossly underestimate a role our bodies and physical word play in the Gods creation. Which is good. Very good.

[james03]

I was using the common understanding of AI, with the requisite stories of "it" becoming "aware".  That is what is absurd.  A machine does not have any immaterial/spiritual element and can never perceive, be curious, or have an opinion and certainly will never "wake up".

But the techniques of neural nets are more and more a mature science.  No dispute.