Hit me with your best shot

[abc123]

Anyway, I wasn't trying to invite debate but was hoping for the best resources that Roman theologians could bring forth. I'm waiting.

While I understand your point, Abc, perhaps wording things like "hit me with your best shot" is not the best approach. Humility is the basis for all profitable knowledge.

Duly noted. It wasn't my intention to sound combative. I can understand how it may appear though.

Unfortunately aside from Xavier and St. Justin I'm not getting much in the way of useful resources.

[St.Justin]

Sorry, Apostolicae curae is a papal encyclical on Anglican orders. It will give some info on that topic.

[Xavier]

ABC123, can I ask you a question. What do you believe about the Real Presence?

Have you heard of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, given in the 8th century?

"Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation ("Recognitions") were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

• The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.


• The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.


• The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart ..."

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

[Xavier]

The Blessed Sacrament: Our Greatest Treasure by Rev. Father Michael Mueller is another outstanding read. It's online here: http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/blessed-eucharist1.htm

"In order to enliven our faith in His Real Presence, Our Lord has frequently manifested Himself in a sensible manner in the Holy Eucharist. Church history abounds in instances of the kind. The first that I shall relate is that of a miracle which occurred in the church of St. Denis in Douay and is recorded by Thomas Cantipratensis, an eye-witness. A certain priest, after having distributed Holy Communion to the faithful, found one of the Sacred Hosts lying on the floor. Full of consternation he knelt down to take it up, when the Host arose of its own accord and placed itself on the purifier. The priest immediately called those who were present, and when they came near the altar, they all saw in the Sacred Host Jesus Christ under the form of a child of exquisite beauty. "On hearing the news," says our author, "I too went to Douay. After I had declared to the dean the object of my visit, we went together to the church, and no sooner had he opened the ciborium wherein the miraculous Host was contained than we both beheld our Divine Saviour." "I saw," says Thomas, "the head of Jesus Christ, like that of a full grown man. It was crowned with thorns. Two drops of blood trickled down His forehead and fell on His cheek. With tearful eyes I fell prostrate before Him. When I arose again, I no longer saw either the crown of thorns or the drops of blood, but only the face of a man whose aspect inspired great veneration." This miracle gave rise to a confraternity in honor of the Most Holy Eucharist, to which several popes, especially Paul IV and Clement XIV, granted numerous indulgences. (P. Favre, Le Ciel Ouvert)

In the village of Les Ulmes de St. Florent, in the diocese of Angers, the following miracle occurred on the second of June, 1666, the Saturday within the octave of the feast of Corpus Christi. The people were assembled in the church for Benediction, and when the priest had intoned the hymn, "Verbum Caro, panem verum," there appeared in place of the Host the distinct figure of a man. He was clothed in white, and His hands were crossed on His breast; His hair fell upon His shoulders, and His countenance was resplendent with majesty. The curate then invited all his parishioners to come and witness the miracle: "If there be any infidel here," said he, "let him now draw near." Everyone approached and gazed upon this beautiful vision for about a quarter of an hour, after which the Host resumed its former shape. The Bishop of Angers, Mgr. Henry Arnaud, after having examined the testimony in favor of this miracle, caused it to be proclaimed throughout the whole of France.

The Blessed Nicholas Fattori, a Franciscan friar, remarkable for his piety and purity of heart, often saw Jesus Christ in the Consecrated Host in the form of an infant. On touching the Blessed Sacrament, he seemed to feel, not the mere Eucharistic species, but the very Flesh of Jesus Christ. On this account, he used to present his fingers to those who wished to kiss his hand, saying: "Kiss these fingers with great respect, for they are sanctified by real contact with Jesus Christ Our Lord and Sovereign Good." It is also related that, when this holy man was in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he used to rejoice as a child does in the presence of its mother.

Our Lord in His great mercy has even gone so far as to manifest Himself to His enemies, to the unbelievers.

In the life of St. Gregory the Great, written by Paul the deacon, it is related that a noble matron of Rome, who was accustomed to prepare the hosts for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, went one Sunday to receive Holy Communion from the Holy Pontiff. When he gave her the Blessed Eucharist, saying, "May the body of Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve thy soul unto life everlasting," she laughed outright. Seeing this, the Sovereign Pontiff did not give her the Blessed Sacrament, but replaced it on the altar, and when the holy mysteries were ended, he asked the lady why she laughed when about to receive the Body of the Lord. "Why," said she, "I laughed because I saw that what you said was the Body of the Lord was one of those very wafers which I had made with my own hands." Upon this the Pope ordered all present to pray that God, in confirmation of the truth, would cause all to see with the eyes of the body what the unbelief of this woman had prevented her from seeing with the eyes of the soul. Accordingly, when the holy Pontiff and all present had prayed for a while, the corporal was removed, and in sight of the multitude who pressed round to witness the miracle, the Holy Host was visibly changed into flesh. Then, turning to the woman, the Pope said: Learn now to believe the words of the Eternal Truth Who declares: "The bread which I give is My Flesh, and My Blood is drink indeed." And having besought God once more to change the Host into its original form, he gave her the Holy Communion. This woman never again doubted of the Real Presence and soon made great progress in virtue."

St. Thomas Aquinas justly said, "Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius. Nil hoc Verbo Veritatem Verius". i.e. "I believe all the Son of God has said. Nothing is truer than Truth's own Word". We believe the Holy Eucharist is Christ's own True Holy Body and Precious Blood, because the Son of God Himself has declared it.

[abc123]

Xavier-

Again I respectfully request that you re-read my original post. I'm interested in resources I can reference which deal with the issues that raged during the 16th Century, in particular the 5 solas.

I was Catholic longer than you have been alive. I'm well acquainted with both Eucharistic theology and supposed Eucharistic miracles. As worthy a topic for discussion thats not what I'm after here.

[Xavier]

Ok. Since you read Dr. Sungenis' Book, Not by Faith Alone (https://www.amazon.com/Not-Faith-Alone-Biblical-Justification/dp/1579180086), maybe you may find these two articles useful. If I recall correctly, Dr. Sungenis used to own the Catholic Apologetics' site. Do you find the below arguments uncompelling? If so, please explain why. Thanks.

1. On Sola Scriptura: "St. Paul both commends and commands the keeping of oral tradition. In 1 Corinthians 11:2, for instance, we read, "Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you." (4) St. Paul is obviously commending the keeping of oral tradition here, and it should be noted in particular that he extols the believers for having done so ("I praise you...."). Explicit in this passage is also the fact that the integrity of this Apostolic oral tradition has clearly been maintained, just as Our Lord promised it would be, through the safeguarding of the Holy Spirit (cf. John 16:3).

Perhaps the clearest Biblical support for oral tradition can be found in 2 Thessalonians 2:14(15), where Christians are actually commanded: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." This passage is significant in that 1) it shows the existence of living traditions within the Apostolic teaching, b) it tells us unequivocally that believers are firmly grounded in the Faith by adhering to these traditions, and c) it clearly states that these traditions were both written and oral. Since the Bible distinctly states here that oral traditions – authentic and Apostolic in origin – are to be "held" as a valid component of the Deposit of Faith, by what reasoning or excuse do Protestants dismiss them? By what authority do they reject a clear-cut injunction of St. Paul? ...

It is very interesting to note that in I Timothy 3:15 we see, not the Bible, but the Church – that is, the living community of believers founded upon St. Peter and the Apostles and headed by their successors – called "the pillar and ground of the truth." Of course, this passage is not meant in any way to diminish the importance of the Bible, but it is intending to show that Jesus Christ did establish an authoritative and teaching Church which was commissioned to teach "all nations." (Matt. 28:19). Elsewhere this same Church received Christ's promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18), that He would always be with it (Matt. 28:20), and that He would give it the Holy Spirit to teach it all truth. (John 16:13). To the visible head of His Church, St. Peter, Our Lord said: "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and, whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matt. 16:19). It is plainly evident from these passages that Our Lord emphasized the authority of His Church and the role it would have in safeguarding and defining the Deposit of Faith." http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/sola.htm

2. On Sola Fide: [Luther said] "Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world.  We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides...  No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."[18] 

"Faith and Good works

Christ taught, "Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your father who is in heaven."[20]

Christ taught (in the words of St. James) "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a he has faith, but has not works? Shall faith be able to save him? So faith also, if it have not works is dead in itself."[21] 

Luther teaches:   "For we account a man to be justified by faith alone, without the works of the law." – On Translation and on the Intercession of the Saints

"It is more important to guard against good works than against sin."[22]

"Good works are bad and are sin like the rest." -[23]

"There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation." [24] http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/matluther.htm

[abc123]

And since I've read the book, posting tired and repeatedly answered excerpts from the same source isn't what I'm after.

Nevermind. I figured this might be a futile exercise. I do have a question for you though, Xavier:
Have you ever read any primary sources from your Interlocutors? Have you ever sought out the best arguments and debaters from the other side? If you have in this case you would realize why I find your repeated attempts at "gotcha" scripture texts so tiring.

Answer honestly. Have you ever read a single book written from a Reformed theologian in order to truly understand the other side of the argument?

Edit: You know what,  nevermind. You seem hell bent on turning this thread into another cut and paste text wall. Forget it. You are absolutely impossible to deal with.

All I want were book, paper or tract recommendations on the topics I specified.

[Xavier]

I gave many books already, from St. Alphonsus, St. Francis De Sales and Father Suarez. You thanked me for the first, but didn't comment on the second two. Did you read them?

I'm sorry I cannot water down the Truth to please men. I speak to non-Christians all the time and I love and respect everybody but I can't water down the Truth that salvation is found only in Jesus Christ, and in Holy Baptism. Our Catholic Faith is proven by so many and such great authorities, arguments, miracles and prophesies, and so many other countless considerations that it is foolish to deviate from it.

Yes, I have read many, many, many Protestant sources. I've read even anti-Catholics like Dave Hunt and James White. I'm amazed one well instructed in the Catholic Faith would find their heresies compelling. God gave us a simple command. The Church will never be conquered by Hell (Mat 16:18); therefore listen to and obey the Church (Mat 18:17); heretical sects of perdition would arise (2 Pet 2:1), and don't go after them, if you value your soul. I love the Lord and therefore will keep His commandments. If you love the Lord, you should do likewise. We will continue to pray for your return.

[christulsa]

In this whole thread abc you sound combative and whining demanding Catholics provide you proof texts we are right in our faith. Nobody here owes you anything.  This is a Catholic forum, therefore the impetus is on you to prove your heresy.  Xavier took the time to answer you, so show him some respect and gratitude.  Otherwise I question why a fallen away Catholic, an Anglican, would post here the way you do in such a prideful way. 

[abc123]

In this whole thread abc you sound combative and whining demanding Catholics provide you proof texts we are right in our faith. Nobody here owes you anything.  This is a Catholic forum, therefore the impetus is on you to prove your heresy.  Xavier took the time to answer you, so show him some respect and gratitude.  Otherwise I question why a fallen away Catholic, an Anglican, would post here the way you do in such a prideful way.

First I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not going to attempt an answer to whatever sources are offered.

Second this is the 'non-Catholic' subforum which seems to be the proper place for this inquiry.

Third I thanked Xavier for the one resource he offered but implored him to stick to the topics I inquired about.

Go ahead and read whatever you want into my motives and character. A bit of observation however: when requests of this nature are made it doesnt help to be met with obstinate refusal to actually address a point on its own terms, flaunt one's ignorance of a point you oppose or make disingenuous platitudes like "I pray for your.....whatever." Typically this is a device used to avoid answering a question or to make oneself feel pious in the face of heretics.

I have found mainstream Catholic apogetics wanting in the topics I have referenced. I was hoping for something a bit more.

[Xavier]

Heresy and schism are mortal sins. Protestantism is heresy and Orthodoxy is schism. For a Roman Catholic, there is no excuse for falling into either. People may believe adultery and sodomy are not mortal sins. They will still be contrary to God's commands. People may believe schism and heresy suddenly ceased to be sins, even when done with full knowledge and wilful consent. That will never be the case.

St. Paul says the heretic is to be put out of the Church after the first and second admonition. Tit 3:10 He is referring to what Our Lord said about how a man on whom the Church has passed judgment has become again like a heathen. Mat 18:17. That is, he is outside the Church, where there is no salvation. Praying or working for those without salvation to enter the fold, where alone they can be saved, is not wrong; it is right and just, good and holy to do so. But it is wrong and sinful, and really a tragedy, to leave the fold, and follow a sect.

Protestantism is nothing new but a 500 year old error and oft-refuted falsehood. The wickedness of Luther and his blasphemous opinion - just read the link; the blasphemer taught Jesus Christ committed adultery. Not even Mohammed, another false prophet, went that far. How shocking that was to me to discover - is enough to see that Protestantism is entirely false and those sects of perdition St. Peter warned about. Those who value their soul should flee from it. Those who love others' souls will warn them not to fall into it and be lost.

Father Arnold Damen is one of many Catholic Missionaries who refuted Protestantism completely and many times over: "Let me, for instance, suppose for a moment, here is a Presbyterian; he reads his Bible; from the reading of his Bible he comes to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is God. Now, you know this is the most essential of all Christian doctrines, the foundation of all Christianity. From the reading of his Bible he comes to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is God; and he is a sensible man, an intelligent man, and not a presumptuous man. And he says: here is my Unitarian neighbor, who is just as reasonable and intelligent as I am, as honest, as learned, and as prayerful as I am, and, from the reading of the Bible, he comes to the conclusion that Christ is not God at all. "Now," says he, "to the best of my opinion and judgment, I am right, and my Unitarian neighbor is wrong; but, after all," says he, "I may be mistaken! Perhaps I have not the right meaning of the text, and if I am wrong, perhaps he is right, after all; but, to the best of my opinion and judgment, I am right and he is wrong."

On what does he believe? On what authority? On his own opinion and judgment. And what is that? A human opinion, human testimony, and, therefore, a human faith. He cannot say positively, "I am sure, positively sure, as sure as there is a God in heaven, that this is the meaning of the text." Therefore, he has no other authority but his own opinion and judgment, and what his preacher tells him. But the preacher is a smart man. There are many smart Unitarian preachers, also, but that proves nothing; it is only human authority, and nothing else, and, therefore, only human faith. What is human faith? Believing a thing on the testimony of man. Divine Faith is believing on the testimony of God.

II.
The Catholic has Divine Faith, and why? Because the Catholic says: "I believe in such and such a thing." Why? "Because the Church teaches me so." And why do you believe the Church? "Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church; and God has threatened me with damnation if I do not believe the Church, and we are taught by St. Peter, in his epistle, that there is no private prophecy or interpretation of the Scriptures, for the unlearned and unstable wrest the very Scriptures, the Bible, to their own damnation."

That is strong language, my dear people, but that is the language of St. Peter, the head of the Apostles. The unlearned and unstable wrest the Bible to their own damnation! And yet, after all, the Bible is the book of God, the language of inspiration; at least, when you have a true Bible, as we Catholics have, and you Protestants have not." https://www.olrl.org/apologetics/churchbible.shtml

[christulsa]

I have looked for the best Catholic apologetics I could find. Unfortunately most of what turns up is either Catholic Answers or other equally unconvincing sources.

I am interested in reading original texts that deal primarily with the issues raised during the Reformation. I want to read the best refutations of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide etc. I want texts which deal directly with exegeting the disputed scriptural texts without appealing to "cause I said so" Church authority.

I've watched hours upon hours of debates with various Reformed apologists debating representatives of the RCC position and keep coming away wondering if this is the best the Catholic side can muster.

So....lets have it. Theologically, scripturally and historically astute works which take serious the opposing argument and seek to refute it.

Please no walls of texts. Just reference the work and I can look it up.

So as to save some time: I've read the catechism of Trent, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Not By Faith Alone, Jesus, Peter and the Keys.

I'm more interested in works penned closer to the time of the 16th century. Please also, where possible, recommend books you have read and can personally vouch for.

Thanks

[Kreuzritter]

Or the third way.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx3jNmuMTJA[/yt]

This is better, more thorough, intelligent and honest, than "mainstream Catholic apologetics".

[Xavier]

Orthodoxy has a simple refutation. The Dogma of the Filioque taught in the Athanasian Creed, in 5 Ecumenical Councils, and countless other sources. Orthodoxy remains very close to Catholicism, of course. If they accept the Filioque and Immaculate Conception, they can return. Protestants have many more errors to repent of. Lack of belief in the Eucharist, lack of love for Holy Mass, lack of devotion to Mary, and lack of love for the Gloriously Crowned (Rev 12:1) Mother of God. He cannot have God for his Father who will not have Mary for his Mother (Rev 12:17), as the Saints admirably say. If formal heretics therefore want to become true children of God and His Church again, let them receive Mary as their Mother, and let them return to and obey the One, Visible, Teaching Church of Mat 18:17.

On Orthodoxy and the Filioque: "Cardinal St. Robert Bellarmine gives a manifest proof establishing the doctrine from the authority of five ecumenical councils:

Omitting these things, then, let us bring forward the Councils that testify the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son. First the Council celebrated at Alexandria, from which Council Cyril writes a letter to Nestorius in which are these words, 'The Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth, and Christ is Truth, and so He proceeds from Him likewise as from the Father.' This letter was read in the Council of Ephesus and was approved both by the Council of Ephesus itself and by the fourth Synod, and by the fifth Synod and by the sixth and seventh Synods. We have therefore five general Councils celebrated among the Greeks which receive the most open and clear opinion that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as from the Father. What then do they now seek? What do they demand?

Patriarch St. Cyril and the five ecumenical councils mentioned by Cardinal St. Robert Bellarmine give us the patristic and Church-authorized interpretation of the Word of Christ in Sacred Scripture. As we will see subsequently, Bishops like St. Hilary, St. Ambrose, and St. Augustine had already done this in the West in the 4th century." https://onepeterfive.com/filioque-separated-east/

Source for St. Robert: [2] St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/procession.htm

Protestantism is going to end very soon, like within the next 50 years, and the Triumph of Mary's Immaculate Heart and Age of Peace foretold by the Saints and the Scriptures will begin. Israel also will be converted to Christ, as St. Paul says, and great blessings will come upon the whole world when it is. Christendom will be one, united in love for Christ, love for the Eucharist, love for the Pope, love for Mary. A very holy Pope - perhaps the holiest Pope after St. Peter - will be granted to the Church along with a very holy King in the line of King David. Then all mankind will give great glory to God and enjoy great peace together with no heresies, no errors and little sin.

[abc123]

You just can't help yourself, Xavier. 

Thanks for highjacking the thread.