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#1

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Former SSPX US District Su...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - Today at 03:08:31 AM

Kennedy Hall is a third-rate, SSPX-version of Taylor Marshall wannabe. He's about as worth listening to as V2

#2

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by EastWest7 - Today at 12:42:27 AM

Sorry, a dupe.

[Russian saints approved during the pontificate of Pius XII had to be in communion with Rome]

#3

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by EastWest7 - Today at 12:40:55 AM

Michael Wilson is absolutely correct that only Catholics can be recognized as Saints. That schismatics like the heretic Palamas are recognized today (even by the Ukrainian Catholics) is a post Vatican-II novelty.

The following quote is from Professor Michael Petrowycz's (presently at Ukrainian Catholic University, L'viv Ukraine] dissertation "Bringing Back the Saints: The Contribution of the Roman Edition of the Ruthenian Liturgical Books (Recensio Ruthena, 1940-1952) to the Commemoration of Slavic Saints in the Ukrainian Catholic Church, p.363.

URL: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OKxWD8l4mTnnpPQtyBp-cOsULWh_DvKY/view?usp=drivesdk

...As mentioned above, even when the moral evaluation of a candidate was positive (even eminently so, as in the case of Metropolitan Phillip), the candidate was nonetheless disqualified when it was accepted beyond doubt that he or she had been out of communion with Rome. This means that the Commission accepted into the RR only saints that it believed to be, or presumed to be, in communion with Rome. The category of a "material schismatic, who did not provoke, but inherited the schism in good faith, and therefore, according to Jugie and St. Augustine, carried no responsibility for the schism, was not considered by the Commissions as a candidate for the RR and RV sanctorale.

RR = Recensio Ruthena (Ukrainian Catholic sanctorale)
RV = Recensio Vulgata (Russian Catholic sanctorale)

The above quote from Petrowycz's dissertation is quite clear. The Russian saints approved during the pontificate of Pius XII had to be in communion with Rome. Even hose who inherited the schism and were of good faith were not considered for sainthood in either the Russian or Ukrainian Catholic Churches.

That's all fine and well for saints who died in the 11-12th century, but how do you justify it for saints such as Sergius or Stephen of Perm, but of whom died at the very end of the 14th c? There is nothing to justify their adherence to Rome at the stage.

Of course, for those of us who are not sede this is a pointless argument as the East has been given way more leeway in venerating Orthodox saints. Allowing the East to be more authentically Eastern was the only silver lining of V2 in my humble opinion.
 

I agree with your assessment regarding V2, LTC (its perspective of the Christian East). I've actually run into TLM-only folks who thought that the removal of such Latinizations in the Eastern Catholic parishes as Stations of The Cross, congregational recitation of the rosary prior to liturgy, use of statues and confessionals, etc in recent years was a result of some sort of liberalization process created by V2.

In my experience it took most Byzantine and Maronite parishes until shortly after Pope John Paul II's Orientale Lumen Apostolic Letter of 1995 to begin comprehensive implementation of Eastern liturgical art and worship structure. Although there are a couple of Byzantine parishes near me who, because of their respective pastors, started the process in the early 1970s.     

#4

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - Today at 12:19:57 AM

Agreed. Kind of like moving. Do it to gain something, not run away.

Chances are if you move because you don't like the way the Latin life is treating you, the Easterns aren't going to be rolling out the red carpet for your arrival. They're liturgical refugees and will be treated as such.

Chances too are if you have no real love for the East, you'll be back in a Latin church in no time (a la Matt Fradd).

Well said, TLC. And I have seen such situations first-hand.

I didn't realize that Matt Fradd had returned to a parish of the Latin Rite. Although it's been a while since I've watched any of his videos.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he did. I don't listen to much of his tripe anymore except the odd interview.

#5

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by EastWest7 - Today at 12:12:28 AM

Agreed. Kind of like moving. Do it to gain something, not run away.

Chances are if you move because you don't like the way the Latin life is treating you, the Easterns aren't going to be rolling out the red carpet for your arrival. They're liturgical refugees and will be treated as such.

Chances too are if you have no real love for the East, you'll be back in a Latin church in no time (a la Matt Fradd).

Well said, LTC. And I have seen such situations first-hand.

I didn't realize that Matt Fradd had returned to a parish of the Latin Rite. Although it's been a while since I've watched any of his videos.

#6

General News and Discussion / Re: More Jewish Terror in the ...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - May 03, 2024, 11:59:36 PM

Jews aren't even Jews, they're Khazars

[Russian saints approved during the pontificate of Pius XII had to be in communion with Rome]

#7

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - May 03, 2024, 11:57:27 PM

Michael Wilson is absolutely correct that only Catholics can be recognized as Saints. That schismatics like the heretic Palamas are recognized today (even by the Ukrainian Catholics) is a post Vatican-II novelty.

The following quote is from Professor Michael Petrowycz's (presently at Ukrainian Catholic University, L'viv Ukraine] dissertation "Bringing Back the Saints: The Contribution of the Roman Edition of the Ruthenian Liturgical Books (Recensio Ruthena, 1940-1952) to the Commemoration of Slavic Saints in the Ukrainian Catholic Church, p.363.

URL: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OKxWD8l4mTnnpPQtyBp-cOsULWh_DvKY/view?usp=drivesdk

...As mentioned above, even when the moral evaluation of a candidate was positive (even eminently so, as in the case of Metropolitan Phillip), the candidate was nonetheless disqualified when it was accepted beyond doubt that he or she had been out of communion with Rome. This means that the Commission accepted into the RR only saints that it believed to be, or presumed to be, in communion with Rome. The category of a "material schismatic, who did not provoke, but inherited the schism in good faith, and therefore, according to Jugie and St. Augustine, carried no responsibility for the schism, was not considered by the Commissions as a candidate for the RR and RV sanctorale.

RR = Recensio Ruthena (Ukrainian Catholic sanctorale)
RV = Recensio Vulgata (Russian Catholic sanctorale)

The above quote from Petrowycz's dissertation is quite clear. The Russian saints approved during the pontificate of Pius XII had to be in communion with Rome. Even hose who inherited the schism and were of good faith were not considered for sainthood in either the Russian or Ukrainian Catholic Churches.

That's all fine and well for saints who died in the 11-12th century, but how do you justify it for saints such as Sergius or Stephen of Perm, but of whom died at the very end of the 14th c? There is nothing to justify their adherence to Rome at the stage.

Of course, for those of us who are not sede this is a pointless argument as the East has been given way more leeway in venerating Orthodox saints. Allowing the East to be more authentically Eastern was the only silver lining of V2 in my humble opinion.
 

#8

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - May 03, 2024, 11:46:35 PM

Agreed. Kind of like moving. Do it to gain something, not run away.

Chances are if you move because you don't like the way the Latin life is treating you, the Easterns aren't going to be rolling out the red carpet for your arrival. You're a liturgical refugee and will be treated as such.

Chances too are if you have no real love for the East, you'll be back in a Latin church in no time (a la Matt Fradd).

#9

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by Bonaventure - May 03, 2024, 11:41:37 PM

Agreed. Kind of like moving. Do it to gain something, not run away.

#10

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - May 03, 2024, 10:27:36 PM

Absolutely; but you have to realize that the current situation in the Church is something that has not happened in  its history; there is no "blueprint" for getting out of it, except waiting for a true Pope to occupy the See of Peter. Meanwhile the situation in Orthodoxy i.e. disunity, is the very essence of their rejection of a central supreme authority. There is a cure for our situation in the very constitution of the Church; their only solution is to convert to the Faith.

Indeed.

As Erick Ybarra tells people who feel tempted to go 'Dox, do it. Be a catechumen for a year.

You'll soon see it doesn't solve the "problem."

If you're jumping ship or going to the sui iuris rites as a "response" (ie. a negative) to the current issues in the Latin Church, you're going to have a bad time.

If you're going because of a genuine love of the East then go for it (Eastern Catholic, not Orthodox, of course).