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The Church Courtyard => Traditional Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: gsas on November 08, 2019, 10:22:55 PM

Title: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 08, 2019, 10:22:55 PM
Jesus Christ died the martyr death that was organized by the devil. 

St Philomena died the martyr death that was not only organized by the devil, but also almost entered by the devil.

The nuns of the monastery that started Europe's Viking age died the martyr death that was both organized as well as entered by the devil.

Finally Soviet imprisoned clergy ended up unwittingly inviting the devil, so they died the martyr death that was both organized and entered by the devil as well as offered to the devil.

And the degrees of martyrdom climb on. 

What are the dogmatic guarantees or other views about the sanctity of the degrees of martyrs?
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 08, 2019, 10:22:55 PM
Jesus Christ died the martyr death that was organized by the devil.

No, it wasn't. Christ's sacrifice, the sole instrument of the redemption of the world, was predetermined from all eternity by God: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. (Acts 2:23)

Not only are you obsessed with the devil, Gsas, but now you seem to ascribe to him powers that rival those of God himself. Satan doesn't "organize," nor does he "enter," whatever that means, the deaths of martyrs. He is only an instrument in the almighty hands of God. I wonder if you are, or have been, involved in Satanism.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: dellery on November 09, 2019, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
He is only an instrument in the almighty hands of God.

Satan is an instrument of God's??
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:57:50 PM
Quote from: dellery on November 09, 2019, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
He is only an instrument in the almighty hands of God.

Satan is an instrument of God's??

Yes, Satan is nothing but an instrument used by God to fulfill His holy will.

He has no power except that which God permits him to have. The devil is an element of creation, like other angels and men, whom God foreordained from all eternity into existence in order to accomplish His purposes in the fabric of time and the history of salvation. He's not some sort of anti-god that rivals the one true God in whose hands alone lie all power and all wisdom.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: dellery on November 09, 2019, 01:18:47 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:57:50 PM
Quote from: dellery on November 09, 2019, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
He is only an instrument in the almighty hands of God.

Satan is an instrument of God's??

Yes, Satan is nothing but an instrument used by God to fulfill His holy will.

He has no power except that which God permits him to have. The devil is an element of creation, like other angels and men, whom God foreordained from all eternity into existence in order to accomplish His purposes in the fabric of time and the history of salvation. He's not some sort of anti-god that rivals the one true God in whose hands alone lie all power and all wisdom.

Interesting. I've seen videos of Lubavitcher Rabbi Mannis Friedman saying the same thing. I'll try and dig one up when the chance arises.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Gardener on November 09, 2019, 01:30:39 PM
But God did not create the Devil. God created all things good, Lucifer being good. At his rebellion, he fell. God permitted it, but did not create "the Devil". Rather he created the one who would become the Devil.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: dellery on November 09, 2019, 02:26:05 PM
Here one is. Skip to 19:42. The rabbi is saying the same thing as VO.

https://youtu.be/EkUoAQC0arw
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 09, 2019, 03:57:36 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 08, 2019, 10:22:55 PM
Jesus Christ died the martyr death that was organized by the devil.

No, it wasn't. Christ's sacrifice, the sole instrument of the redemption of the world, was predetermined from all eternity by God: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. (Acts 2:23)

Not only are you obsessed with the devil, Gsas, but now you seem to ascribe to him powers that rival those of God himself. Satan doesn't "organize," nor does he "enter," whatever that means, the deaths of martyrs. He is only an instrument in the almighty hands of God. I wonder if you are, or have been, involved in Satanism.

In eastern europe, where all churches were repressed for minimum 80 years, Satanism runs high and so when I travel I see it blatantly and in plain sight, with all its effect, artifacts, and results on its unsuspecting victims.  Especially on those victims who want to come to Christ.  What you see on TV and in movies on exorcism is nothing compared to what goes on in reality.  So yes, I know a gray deal about satanism, and I am awfully afraid of it in total fear.  That's why I fight against it, with the full power of the Church and the Lord Jesus Christ, in every congregation that I visit with the experts.

Also, before I forget, if you think that the Jobian theory of Satan as an instrument of God is universal, then I would like to mention, that this contradicts the fact, that God punishes only up to the 4th generation.  This limit is regularly broken.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 09, 2019, 04:08:32 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:57:50 PM
Quote from: dellery on November 09, 2019, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 09, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
He is only an instrument in the almighty hands of God.

Satan is an instrument of God's??

Yes, Satan is nothing but an instrument used by God to fulfill His holy will.

He has no power except that which God permits him to have. The devil is an element of creation, like other angels and men, whom God foreordained from all eternity into existence in order to accomplish His purposes in the fabric of time and the history of salvation. He's not some sort of anti-god that rivals the one true God in whose hands alone lie all power and all wisdom.

So how can typically some pain placed into your soul by statan be so big that it breaks you?  This can't be God's work as God is written never to push people beyond their breaking points.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 09, 2019, 04:16:08 PM
Quote from: Gardener on November 09, 2019, 01:30:39 PM
But God did not create the Devil. God created all things good, Lucifer being good. At his rebellion, he fell. God permitted it, but did not create "the Devil". Rather he created the one who would become the Devil.

Thank you for writing this!  This points out the real nature of eternity. 

In eternity, if something can do something, then it is bound to do it.  So every soul comes out as if is transformed by eternity itself ifrom balanced peaceful entities into torture victims beyond their breaking point.   There must be a reason why this is declarative as a failure of the whole creation itself, when the Book of Revelations reports that the same earth passes away as the one so eagerly trying salvationin in the Letter of Romans.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Gardener on November 09, 2019, 04:59:55 PM
That cannot be drawn from what I wrote.

The angels were not created in "eternity".
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: dellery on November 09, 2019, 05:22:31 PM
QuoteThe authoritative teaching of the Church on this topic is set forth in the decrees of the Fourth Lateran Council (cap. i, "Firmiter credimus"), wherein, after saying that God in the beginning had created together two creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal, that is to say the angelic and the earthly, and lastly man, who was made of both spirit and body, the council continues:

"Diabolus enim et alii dæmones a Deo quidem naturâ creati sunt boni, sed ipsi per se facti sunt mali." ("the Devil and the other demons were created by God good in their nature but they by themselves have made themselves evil.")

Here it is clearly taught that the Devil and the other demons are spiritual or angelic creatures created by God in a state of innocence, and that they became evil by their own act. It is added that man sinned by the suggestion of the Devil, and that in the next world the wicked shall suffer perpetual punishment with the Devil.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 09, 2019, 09:38:05 PM
Quote from: Gardener on November 09, 2019, 04:59:55 PM
That cannot be drawn from what I wrote.

The angels were not created in "eternity".

Maybe I don't exactly understand your post then.

I think your point is that at the point of creation, God created all things to be good.  Then some things went corrupt.

So I see 2 time points here, creation and corruption.

So my logic is that if these things exist or happen, then the time period between them happening again is the measure of their existence itself.  Can look at it like a frequency of occurrence. 

So there is no definite boundary between something to exist or not to exist, but instead there is this smoothly  variable time period between its occurrences.

For something never to occur, you need a zero frequency for it or equivalently an infinite time between its occurrences.  This defines the state of never having been created.  Eternity is the guarantee therefore that something has never been created. 

Therefore, I agree that the spiritual beings good or bad were not created in eternity.

But then once they are created, there is a finite time period between their occurrences.  This period is defined by the time measured between their creation and corruption. 

So the fact that we can read these measurement reports in the Bible, we can follow the degree that they exist.  When the devil started his rebellion against God, it shortened its period of occurance, therefore incremented its own existence. 

We who don't want to corrupt ourselves in order to increment our existance, are happy with longer time periods of occurance down to the reaches of eternity where the time period is infinite and we achieve our own un-creation.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Non Nobis on November 09, 2019, 10:11:52 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 09, 2019, 03:57:36 PM

In eastern europe, where all churches were repressed for minimum 80 years, Satanism runs high and so when I travel I see it blatantly and in plain sight, with all its effect, artifacts, and results on its unsuspecting victims.  Especially on those victims who want to come to Christ.  What you see on TV and in movies on exorcism is nothing compared to what goes on in reality.  So yes, I know a gray deal about satanism, and I am awfully afraid of it in total fear.  That's why I fight against it, with the full power of the Church and the Lord Jesus Christ, in every congregation that I visit with the experts.

If you are dealing with Satanists in plain sight perhaps what you supposedly "know" is what they have deceived you to think. Given that you are spouting horrific errors against Catholic faith, that seems to be the most reasonable conclusion. Abandon all the things you supposedly "know", read basic Catholic doctrine, and especially PRAY rather than thinking about Satanism. You are not a priest, stop exploring the heart of deceptive evil and as the result spreading it further. Your so-called "experts" may have been deceived like you.

You speak of things that "go on in reality" but you can not possibly know what is spiritual and invisible in men, whether it is Divine or demonic. You see fearful external physical things that are real and come to spiritual conclusions that are false and evil.

You say things that are not from God. Maybe you are trying to fight Satanism, but Satan is using you. Be humble, consider that possibility, and pray.

:pray2:
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 10, 2019, 09:55:36 AM
Quote from: Non Nobis on November 09, 2019, 10:11:52 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 09, 2019, 03:57:36 PM

In eastern europe, where all churches were repressed for minimum 80 years, Satanism runs high and so when I travel I see it blatantly and in plain sight, with all its effect, artifacts, and results on its unsuspecting victims.  Especially on those victims who want to come to Christ.  What you see on TV and in movies on exorcism is nothing compared to what goes on in reality.  So yes, I know a gray deal about satanism, and I am awfully afraid of it in total fear.  That's why I fight against it, with the full power of the Church and the Lord Jesus Christ, in every congregation that I visit with the experts.

If you are dealing with Satanists in plain sight perhaps what you supposedly "know" is what they have deceived you to think. Given that you are spouting horrific errors against Catholic faith, that seems to be the most reasonable conclusion. Abandon all the things you supposedly "know", read basic Catholic doctrine, and especially PRAY rather than thinking about Satanism. You are not a priest, stop exploring the heart of deceptive evil and as the result spreading it further. Your so-called "experts" may have been deceived like you.

You speak of things that "go on in reality" but you can not possibly know what is spiritual and invisible in men, whether it is Divine or demonic. You see fearful external physical things that are real and come to spiritual conclusions that are false and evil.

You say things that are not from God. Maybe you are trying to fight Satanism, but Satan is using you. Be humble, consider that possibility, and pray.

:pray2:

Yes, deception is a big problem.  But the availability of information is still a necessity in order to fight this.  Maybe this forum is not the right place for it, although this forum is the best place from where correct Catholic doctrine can be learnt and applied.

Here is one of the best stories of socialist martyrdom, and would be interesting to discover how Catholic doctrine can be applied to it.

Socialist governments often used Satanist groups for the purposes of finding and tracking people. When you are born, you give away control over yourself to your parents, and the first step of getting any control over yourself back is your baptism.  Baptism is prohibited in this scenario.  God wants you to be baptised but it is now prohibited and your parents will refuse to do it.

Now, since none of the controls over yourself is returned to you, your parents and their government affiliates are opportunistic to install any number of demons and spiritual devices into you, in order to control every aspect of your entire life in the future.

As a result, all people in your life will enter and exit your life only as per the permission and / or prohibition of the above mentioned powers.

Furrhermore, any number of people who enter and exit your life, unsuspectfully, can also individually fall under the control of this evil, because for example when you finish your school and start your office, all your clients fall under your authority the same way as the soldier of the centurion fell under the authority of the centurion in front of Jesus.  So the spreading of this problem is real, therefore spreading information about it is a good idea.

The real question is, how can Catholic doctrine help the person with those demons and devices already inside him, and how can Catholic doctrine help against the regeneration and re-planting of those demons and devices into the people that may later come under the authority of such a person.

So whilst it is true that the devil doesn't have equal power to God, but there are enough technicalities at its disposal to regenerate itself indefinitely and spread, like a deadly infection, thereby rivaling God.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Vetus Ordo on November 10, 2019, 02:47:53 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 09, 2019, 03:57:36 PMAlso, before I forget, if you think that the Jobian theory of Satan as an instrument of God is universal, then I would like to mention, that this contradicts the fact, that God punishes only up to the 4th generation. This limit is regularly broken.

I have no idea what sort of point you're trying to make.

Quote from: gsas on November 09, 2019, 04:08:32 PMSo how can typically some pain placed into your soul by statan be so big that it breaks you? This can't be God's work as God is written never to push people beyond their breaking points.

Breaking points? You must mean 1 Corinthians 10:13 where the Apostle teaches that Christians have nothing to fear from temptations, knowing that God is able to bring them through any afflictions: There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

As for possession, it is certain that the Holy Spirit does not cohabit with demons in the bodies and souls of believers (2 Cor. 6:15-16). The baptized are truly the walking temples of the living God. When a soul is possessed, it is either an unbeliever or a believer who was open to the occult by a void of grace, justly brought about by sin. The possessed can only be delivered from such affliction by the power of Christ and those who exorcise in His name.

Quote from: gsas on November 10, 2019, 09:55:36 AMSo whilst it is true that the devil doesn't have equal power to God, but there are enough technicalities at its disposal to regenerate itself indefinitely and spread, like a deadly infection, thereby rivaling God.

You are deceived.

Nothing can rival God. Evil and Satan are merely permitted to exist so that all things work together to fulfill the eschaton. God predetermined all existence and is ever in control of it.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Non Nobis on November 10, 2019, 04:55:44 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 10, 2019, 09:55:36 AM
..
The real question is, how can Catholic doctrine help the person with those demons and devices already inside him, and how can Catholic doctrine help against the regeneration and re-planting of those demons and devices into the people that may later come under the authority of such a person.


Only reading Catholic doctrine does not in itself help against the devil.  But Catholic doctrine teaches us what to believe to and how to live as a Catholic. Catholic doctrine teaches that fighting the devil requires especially grace, prayer,  help from priests and their exorcisms, other prayers, and blessings.  It also requires the use of our own free will, which Catholic doctrine teaches the devil can not control - mortal sin is freely willed by man. Catholic doctrine teaches that the devil cannot rival God, no matter what external evil God permits him to do.  "The devil made me do it" is a popular saying among some people, but it is always a lie.   Any "generational harm" that demons may inflict is not upon the souls and wills of those afflicted.  God may permit external harm and temptations (terrible things) perhaps even upon generations, but Satan has absolutely no authority over our wills. That is what Catholic doctrine teaches and you deny.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Geremia on November 11, 2019, 06:27:30 PM
It seems so, according to St. Dominic, from his biography by Bl. Jordon of Saxony (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=6513):
QuoteOn one occasion, when they threatened to kill him, he calmly answered, "I am not worthy of the martyr's glory; as yet I haven't merited such a death." Some time later, as he neared a place in which he suspected traps had been laid for him, he started to sing and walked by fearlessly. When the heretics learned of this, they marvelled at his courage and asked him, "Aren't you afraid of death? What would you have done if we had captured you?" His only answer was, "I would have asked you not to kill me all at once, but to cut me up member by member, so as to give me a lingering martyrdom. Then, before you plucked out my eyes, I would ask you to hold before me each part you had cut from my body. After all that, you could let the rest of my body roll about in its own blood or you could kill me altogether."
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 12, 2019, 09:17:40 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 10, 2019, 02:47:53 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 09, 2019, 03:57:36 PMAlso, before I forget, if you think that the Jobian theory of Satan as an instrument of God is universal, then I would like to mention, that this contradicts the fact, that God punishes only up to the 4th generation. This limit is regularly broken.

I have no idea what sort of point you're trying to make.

Quote from: gsas on November 09, 2019, 04:08:32 PMSo how can typically some pain placed into your soul by statan be so big that it breaks you? This can't be God's work as God is written never to push people beyond their breaking points.

Breaking points? You must mean 1 Corinthians 10:13 where the Apostle teaches that Christians have nothing to fear from temptations, knowing that God is able to bring them through any afflictions: There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

As for possession, it is certain that the Holy Spirit does not cohabit with demons in the bodies and souls of believers (2 Cor. 6:15-16). The baptized are truly the walking temples of the living God. When a soul is possessed, it is either an unbeliever or a believer who was open to the occult by a void of grace, justly brought about by sin. The possessed can only be delivered from such affliction by the power of Christ and those who exorcise in His name.

Quote from: gsas on November 10, 2019, 09:55:36 AMSo whilst it is true that the devil doesn't have equal power to God, but there are enough technicalities at its disposal to regenerate itself indefinitely and spread, like a deadly infection, thereby rivaling God.

You are deceived.

Nothing can rival God. Evil and Satan are merely permitted to exist so that all things work together to fulfill the eschaton. God predetermined all existence and is ever in control of it.

I agree, so, what comes out is that the time period between conception and baptism is what governs everything. Especially about the question of possession of believers.  Your moment of conception is when you reject God.  Thereafter, by accepting the original sin, you effectively sign a contract of indentured slavery to the devil.  You will then be stuck like that, and all the delusions that God sends you to believe all the lies will pile in you.  You are hopeless, and stay like that, until the Church baptizes you.  Typically, this is blocked by your parents, so you remain hopeless.  Therefore, I think it is still possible that people themselves increment the power of the devil to rival God, at least in children.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 12, 2019, 09:30:07 AM
Quote from: Non Nobis on November 10, 2019, 04:55:44 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 10, 2019, 09:55:36 AM
..
The real question is, how can Catholic doctrine help the person with those demons and devices already inside him, and how can Catholic doctrine help against the regeneration and re-planting of those demons and devices into the people that may later come under the authority of such a person.


Only reading Catholic doctrine does not in itself help against the devil.  But Catholic doctrine teaches us what to believe to and how to live as a Catholic. Catholic doctrine teaches that fighting the devil requires especially grace, prayer,  help from priests and their exorcisms, other prayers, and blessings.  It also requires the use of our own free will, which Catholic doctrine teaches the devil can not control - mortal sin is freely willed by man. Catholic doctrine teaches that the devil cannot rival God, no matter what external evil God permits him to do.  "The devil made me do it" is a popular saying among some people, but it is always a lie.   Any "generational harm" that demons may inflict is not upon the souls and wills of those afflicted.  God may permit external harm and temptations (terrible things) perhaps even upon generations, but Satan has absolutely no authority over our wills. That is what Catholic doctrine teaches and you deny.
Catholic doctrine is always correct, so this brings up the question of what happens to free will to end up in such affliction.  I would like to postulate, that you sign over your God given free will to the devil when you are conceived.  That is when your slavery to the devil begins, and it includes every function of your soul, including your will.  I speculate, that the Catholic doctrine considers the state of your free will after baptism or before your conception.  But when you give away your free will to the devil by getting conceived, then God is stuck in wait, because God always respects free will.  Isn't this the catch then?  You get your free will back by the Church when the Church baptizes you.  If your parents or society prohibit that, then what can God do for you?  Is my thesis wrong, that this way it is people themselves who give more power to the devil than God, especially on children?
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Vetus Ordo on November 12, 2019, 02:05:31 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 12, 2019, 09:17:40 AMI agree, so, what comes out is that the time period between conception and baptism is what governs everything. Especially about the question of possession of believers.  Your moment of conception is when you reject God.  Thereafter, by accepting the original sin, you effectively sign a contract of indentured slavery to the devil.  You will then be stuck like that, and all the delusions that God sends you to believe all the lies will pile in you.  You are hopeless, and stay like that, until the Church baptizes you.  Typically, this is blocked by your parents, so you remain hopeless.  Therefore, I think it is still possible that people themselves increment the power of the devil to rival God, at least in children

It is hard to believe that someone who has so little comprehension of even the basics of the catholic faith is working with "experts" on the demonic and evangelizing on behalf of the Church as you claim to do.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: gsas on November 12, 2019, 05:02:50 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 12, 2019, 02:05:31 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 12, 2019, 09:17:40 AMI agree, so, what comes out is that the time period between conception and baptism is what governs everything. Especially about the question of possession of believers.  Your moment of conception is when you reject God.  Thereafter, by accepting the original sin, you effectively sign a contract of indentured slavery to the devil.  You will then be stuck like that, and all the delusions that God sends you to believe all the lies will pile in you.  You are hopeless, and stay like that, until the Church baptizes you.  Typically, this is blocked by your parents, so you remain hopeless.  Therefore, I think it is still possible that people themselves increment the power of the devil to rival God, at least in children

It is hard to believe that someone who has so little comprehension of even the basics of the catholic faith is working with "experts" on the demonic and evangelizing on behalf of the Church as you claim to do.

Well I was trying to think about them.  What I wrote is the result of my logic.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: Vetus Ordo on November 13, 2019, 12:59:09 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 12, 2019, 05:02:50 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on November 12, 2019, 02:05:31 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 12, 2019, 09:17:40 AMI agree, so, what comes out is that the time period between conception and baptism is what governs everything. Especially about the question of possession of believers.  Your moment of conception is when you reject God.  Thereafter, by accepting the original sin, you effectively sign a contract of indentured slavery to the devil.  You will then be stuck like that, and all the delusions that God sends you to believe all the lies will pile in you.  You are hopeless, and stay like that, until the Church baptizes you.  Typically, this is blocked by your parents, so you remain hopeless.  Therefore, I think it is still possible that people themselves increment the power of the devil to rival God, at least in children

It is hard to believe that someone who has so little comprehension of even the basics of the catholic faith is working with "experts" on the demonic and evangelizing on behalf of the Church as you claim to do.

Well I was trying to think about them.  What I wrote is the result of my logic.

What you wrote is either the result of conscious trolling or of ignorance.
Title: Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
Post by: dymphnaw on November 25, 2019, 11:14:46 AM
This doesn't make a lick of sense.