The Holy Father is yet to respond
ROME (ChurchMilitant.com (https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/dubia-cardinals-publish-letter-requesting-meeting-with-pope)) - Vaticanista Sandro Magister Monday published a letter (http://magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/2017/06/19/a-nossa-consciencia-forca-nos%E2%80%A6/) sent by the dubia cardinals to Pope Francis asking for a private meeting with him. Authored by Cdl. Carlo Caffarra, archbishop-emeritus of the Bologna, Italy archdiocese, the letter was hand delivered to the Holy Father May 6, and is yet to receive a response.
The dubia (http://m.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/full-text-and-explanatory-notes-of-cardinals-questions-on-amoris-laetitia#.WCsfGC0rKM9), or questions, were issued to the Holy Father in September 2016, and came in light of confusion from Chapter 8 of his apostolic exhortation
Amoris Laetitia, particularly paragraphs 300–305, used by liberal bishops to promote opening up the sacraments to the divorced and civilly remarried, contrary to longstanding Church teaching and practice.
The dubia noted "a grave disorientation and great confusion" among the faithful over "contrasting interpretations" of the exhortation. The Holy Father, however, has never responded to the dubia, which led the cardinals to request a private audience with him to discuss the widening confusion over the exhortation's application.
Caffarra makes clear the cardinals' respect and fealty to the Holy Father, referring to him in th word of St. Catherine of Siena as the "sweet Christ on earth," and rejecting the position of sedevacantists, who deny the validity of the current papacy.
The letter also notes the cardinals' "awareness of the grave responsibility arising from the munus of cardinals: to be advisers of the Successor of Peter in his sovereign ministry."
The request for a private audience stems from the cardinals' wish to clear up confusion, noting the contrary applications of
Amoris Laetitia in dioceses worldwide.
"And so it is happening — how painful it is to see this! — that what is sin in Poland is good in Germany, that what is prohibited in the archdiocese of Philadelphia is permitted in Malta," the letter notes, "And so on."
"One is reminded of the bitter observation of B. Pascal: 'Justice on this side of the Pyrenees, injustice on the other; justice on the left bank of the river, injustice on the right bank,' the letter continues.
After noting that the cardinals "feel the weight of our responsibility" as shepherds, the missive closes with a humble plea to meet privately with the Holy Father.
Below is the full text of the letter:
QuoteMost Holy Father,
It is with a certain trepidation that I address myself to Your Holiness, during these days of the Easter season. I do so on behalf of the Most Eminent Cardinals: Walter Brandmüller, Raymond L. Burke, Joachim Meisner, and myself.
We wish to begin by renewing our absolute dedication and our unconditional love for the Chair of Peter and for Your august person, in whom we recognize the Successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus: the "sweet Christ on earth," as Saint Catherine of Siena was fond of saying. We do not share in the slightest the position of those who consider the See of Peter vacant, nor of those who want to attribute to others the indivisible responsibility of the Petrine munus. We are moved solely by the awareness of the grave responsibility arising from the munus of cardinals: to be advisers of the Successor of Peter in his sovereign ministry. And from the Sacrament of the Episcopate, which "has placed us as bishops to pasture the Church, which He has acquired with his blood" (Acts 20:28).
On September 19, 2016 we delivered to Your Holiness and to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith five dubia, asking You to resolve uncertainties and to bring clarity on some points of the post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation, Amoris Laetitia.
Not having received any response from Your Holiness, we have reached the decision to ask You, respectfully and humbly, for an Audience, together if Your Holiness would like. We attach, as is the practice, an Audience Sheet in which we present the two points we wish to discuss with you.
Most Holy Father,
A year has now gone by since the publication of Amoris Laetitia. During this time, interpretations of some objectively ambiguous passages of the post-synodal Exhortation have publicly been given that are not divergent from, but contrary to, the permanent Magisterium of the Church. Despite the fact that the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith has repeatedly declared that the doctrine of the Church has not changed, numerous statements have appeared from individual Bishops, Cardinals, and even Episcopal Conferences, approving what the Magisterium of the Church has never approved. Not only access to the Holy Eucharist for those who objectively and publicly live in a situation of grave sin, and intend to remain in it, but also a conception of moral conscience contrary to the Tradition of the Church. And so it is happening — how painful it is to see this! — that what is sin in Poland is good in Germany, that what is prohibited in the archdiocese of Philadelphia is permitted in Malta. And so on. One is reminded of the bitter observation of B. Pascal: "Justice on this side of the Pyrenees, injustice on the other; justice on the left bank of the river, injustice on the right bank."
Numerous competent lay faithful, who are deeply in love with the Church and staunchly loyal to the Apostolic See, have turned to their Pastors and to Your Holiness in order to be confirmed in the Holy Doctrine concerning the three sacraments of Marriage, Confession, and the Eucharist. And in these very days, in Rome, six lay faithful, from every Continent, have presented a very well-attended study seminar with the meaningful title: "Bringing clarity."
Faced with this grave situation, in which many Christian communities are being divided, we feel the weight of our responsibility, and our conscience impels us to ask humbly and respectfully for an Audience.
May Your Holiness remember us in Your prayers, as we pledge to remember You in ours. And we ask for the gift of Your Apostolic Blessing.
Carlo Card. Caffarra
Rome, April 25, 2017
Feast of Saint Mark the Evangelist
Unbelievable, the four Cardinals are still trying to bring Pope Francis around to reason. At least they haven't given up.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Michael Wilson on June 19, 2017, 08:03:07 PM
Unbelievable, the four Cardinals are still trying to bring Pope Francis around to reason. At least they haven't given up.
Very good news indeed. Just read a new E Book by E. Michael Jones over the weekend on Pope Francis and Argentina. Based on what I read Francis's modus operandi is simply to ignore, or sidestep, any challenge that comes his way. It will be interesting to watch his response. Which will probably be no response.
https://www.amazon.com/Pope-Francis-Context-Arrived-Buenos/dp/1521488878/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=&linkCode=sl1&tag=cultwars-20&linkId=407c0efeda6af6a4f1e425e8a80d9312
Quote from: Innocent Smith on June 19, 2017, 10:03:00 PMJust read a new E Book by E. Michael Jones over the weekend on Pope Francis and Argentina. Based on what I read Francis's modus operandi is simply to ignore, or sidestep, any challenge that comes his way. It will be interesting to watch his response. Which will probably be no response.
https://www.amazon.com/Pope-Francis-Context-Arrived-Buenos/dp/1521488878/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=&linkCode=sl1&tag=cultwars-20&linkId=407c0efeda6af6a4f1e425e8a80d9312
Wow, Jones is quite prolific. I wasn't aware of this e-book. However, I'd be leery of reading it because Jones, although an excellent historian, is still a
Novus Ordite. I wonder if Hugh Akins (https://ca-rc.com/about-the-author), a sort of traditional analogue of Jones, has written anything similar to Jones's
Pope Francis in Context.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on June 19, 2017, 08:03:07 PM
Unbelievable, the four Cardinals are still trying to bring Pope Francis around to reason. At least they haven't given up.
Is there rejection of sedevacantism reasonable, though?
Isn't their letter pontificating on dogmatic anti-sedevacantism? Neither sedevacantism nor anti-sedevantism have been decided on by the Magisterium.
Yes, yes, yes. Let us go up to Rome and convince the Pope; he will surely listen to us. :deadhorse:
Quote from: King Wenceslas on June 20, 2017, 12:17:04 PM
Yes, yes, yes. Let us go up to Rome and convince the Pope; he will surely listen to us. :deadhorse:
I do not expect them to convince the pope, but I am still grateful to them for doing it.
Quote from: Innocent Smith on June 19, 2017, 10:03:00 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on June 19, 2017, 08:03:07 PM
Unbelievable, the four Cardinals are still trying to bring Pope Francis around to reason. At least they haven't given up.
Very good news indeed. Just read a new E Book by E. Michael Jones over the weekend on Pope Francis and Argentina. Based on what I read Francis's modus operandi is simply to ignore, or sidestep, any challenge that comes his way. It will be interesting to watch his response. Which will probably be no response.
https://www.amazon.com/Pope-Francis-Context-Arrived-Buenos/dp/1521488878/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=&linkCode=sl1&tag=cultwars-20&linkId=407c0efeda6af6a4f1e425e8a80d9312
Likeliest. Francis although he bridles at what he must think an insult, probably knows that doing and saying nothing serves him best. Cardinals and individual Episcopal Conferences might shudder, but opponents are wholly divided. Perhaps the only
dubia he will answer will be the one when the Kisser of Moslem Feet is brought before the Tribunal of Judgement before which we will all stand and have to give account.
Quote from: Geremia on June 20, 2017, 09:19:04 AM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on June 19, 2017, 08:03:07 PM
Unbelievable, the four Cardinals are still trying to bring Pope Francis around to reason. At least they haven't given up.
Is there rejection of sedevacantism reasonable, though?
Isn't their letter pontificating on dogmatic anti-sedevacantism? Neither sedevacantism nor anti-sedevantism have been decided on by the Magisterium.
Its not reasonable; but I didn't even expect any Cardinals or bishops to react against the errors of Francis. This at least is a step in the right direction.
QuoteFor the second time in a row, it appears Pope Francis won't be convening a meeting of cardinals ahead of next Wednesday's consistory for the creation of five new red hats.
...
Ahead of his earlier consistories, in February 2014 and February 2015, Francis held such meetings. They took place in the Synod Hall, lasted two full days, and were an opportunity for the Pope to hear about issues and concerns from around the world, as well as update the cardinals on Vatican-related issues and those of the universal Church.
For a pope to skip holding a pre-consistory meeting is rare. Benedict dropped such a gathering ahead of his last cardinal-making consistory in November 2012, during which he created six new cardinals, but he held them for his other four.
The Holy See Press Office has not responded to questions about whether the meeting would be going ahead, but sources say he may meet some cardinals individually.
At the previous consistory last November, the Pope is thought to have preferred to avoid a confrontation with the four dubia cardinals who were allegedly planning to resubmit the dubia at the meeting, or at least bring up the topic.
Aware that the cardinals had written again a couple of months ago requesting an audience, and having not responded, the Pope may have decided again to avoid any encounter, although as with Benedict in 2012, it may have been due to the small number of new cardinals.
(Edward Pentin, "Pope to Skip Holding Pre-Consistory Meeting With Cardinals?" (http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-skips-holding-pre-consistory-meeting-with-cardinals), National Catholic Register, June 21, 2017)
[yt]https://youtu.be/HhuewundDxc[/yt]
I don't care about Pope Francis. What is interesting is that the Cardinals are taking the next step. They have accused Francis publically of heresy twice and asked him to recant. Now they want to meet with him. One step forward.
Quote from: King Wenceslas on June 20, 2017, 12:17:04 PM
Yes, yes, yes. Let us go up to Rome and convince the Pope; he will surely listen to us. :deadhorse:
It is entirely correct that people can see
Franciscus has no wish to remove any confusion. The
dubia are not flawless, they cite nothing or very little before V2, but they are forcing
Conciliar Ultras to show their true beliefs and attitudes.
Quote from: Geremia on June 21, 2017, 02:10:57 PM
QuoteFor the second time in a row, it appears Pope Francis won't be convening a meeting of cardinals ahead of next Wednesday's consistory for the creation of five new red hats.
...
Ahead of his earlier consistories, in February 2014 and February 2015, Francis held such meetings. They took place in the Synod Hall, lasted two full days, and were an opportunity for the Pope to hear about issues and concerns from around the world, as well as update the cardinals on Vatican-related issues and those of the universal Church.
For a pope to skip holding a pre-consistory meeting is rare. Benedict dropped such a gathering ahead of his last cardinal-making consistory in November 2012, during which he created six new cardinals, but he held them for his other four.
The Holy See Press Office has not responded to questions about whether the meeting would be going ahead, but sources say he may meet some cardinals individually.
At the previous consistory last November, the Pope is thought to have preferred to avoid a confrontation with the four dubia cardinals who were allegedly planning to resubmit the dubia at the meeting, or at least bring up the topic.
Aware that the cardinals had written again a couple of months ago requesting an audience, and having not responded, the Pope may have decided again to avoid any encounter, although as with Benedict in 2012, it may have been due to the small number of new cardinals.
(Edward Pentin, "Pope to Skip Holding Pre-Consistory Meeting With Cardinals?" (http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-skips-holding-pre-consistory-meeting-with-cardinals), National Catholic Register, June 21, 2017)
Is the correct inference that Pope Francis is very probably not having pre consistory meeting again because he is - again - using the avoidance tactic as described in the linked ebook? (since he has had 2, and 'coincidentally' stopped with the dubia)
It seems these Cardinals have now reached the ABL level of communication with the Vatican regarding the crisis in the Church. ABL was mainly concerned with changes in the Mass while the Cardinals are concerned with changes in Church doctrine for the faithful. Slippery has now met the slope.
QuoteDuring this time, interpretations of some objectively ambiguous passages of the post-synodal Exhortation have publicly been given that are not divergent from, but contrary to, the permanent Magisterium of the Church. Despite the fact that the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith has repeatedly declared that the doctrine of the Church has not changed, numerous statements have appeared from individual Bishops, Cardinals, and even Episcopal Conferences, approving what the Magisterium of the Church has never approved.
Why are they seemingly surprised about this happening? Why do they think things would be any different now than they were 50 years ago? I wonder what they will do if continually blown off by the Pope? Will they be brave enough, like ABL, to do what needs to be done? :pray3: :popcorn:
Quote from: dymphna17 on June 26, 2017, 08:31:48 PM
It seems these Cardinals have now reached the ABL level of communication with the Vatican regarding the crisis in the Church. ABL was mainly concerned with changes in the Mass while the Cardinals are concerned with changes in Church doctrine for the faithful. Slippery has now met the slope.
QuoteDuring this time, interpretations of some objectively ambiguous passages of the post-synodal Exhortation have publicly been given that are not divergent from, but contrary to, the permanent Magisterium of the Church. Despite the fact that the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith has repeatedly declared that the doctrine of the Church has not changed, numerous statements have appeared from individual Bishops, Cardinals, and even Episcopal Conferences, approving what the Magisterium of the Church has never approved.
Why are they seemingly surprised about this happening? Why do they think things would be any different now than they were 50 years ago? I wonder what they will do if continually blown off by the Pope? Will they be brave enough, like ABL, to do what needs to be done? :pray3: :popcorn:
yeah, maybe better to break away and let the church take its course to the bottom.
Quote from: Sempronius on June 26, 2017, 09:37:34 PM
Quote from: dymphna17 on June 26, 2017, 08:31:48 PM
It seems these Cardinals have now reached the ABL level of communication with the Vatican regarding the crisis in the Church. ABL was mainly concerned with changes in the Mass while the Cardinals are concerned with changes in Church doctrine for the faithful. Slippery has now met the slope.
QuoteDuring this time, interpretations of some objectively ambiguous passages of the post-synodal Exhortation have publicly been given that are not divergent from, but contrary to, the permanent Magisterium of the Church. Despite the fact that the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith has repeatedly declared that the doctrine of the Church has not changed, numerous statements have appeared from individual Bishops, Cardinals, and even Episcopal Conferences, approving what the Magisterium of the Church has never approved.
Why are they seemingly surprised about this happening? Why do they think things would be any different now than they were 50 years ago? I wonder what they will do if continually blown off by the Pope? Will they be brave enough, like ABL, to do what needs to be done? :pray3: :popcorn:
yeah, maybe better to break away and let the church take its course to the bottom.
No, more like the Church is in crisis so we will maintain Her until the hierarchy comes back to it's senses. And that doesn't mean, as some will think/say, "we will become the Church over here." It means that we will continue to uphold the sacraments, preaching and teaching the faithful, and creating Priests for the Church, as has been done for centuries, using the clear Traditional methods. There is no breaking away. Except by the Vatican and oh, so, many of the hierarchy.
Quote from: dymphna17 on June 26, 2017, 10:25:49 PM
Quote from: Sempronius on June 26, 2017, 09:37:34 PM
Quote from: dymphna17 on June 26, 2017, 08:31:48 PM
It seems these Cardinals have now reached the ABL level of communication with the Vatican regarding the crisis in the Church. ABL was mainly concerned with changes in the Mass while the Cardinals are concerned with changes in Church doctrine for the faithful. Slippery has now met the slope.
QuoteDuring this time, interpretations of some objectively ambiguous passages of the post-synodal Exhortation have publicly been given that are not divergent from, but contrary to, the permanent Magisterium of the Church. Despite the fact that the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith has repeatedly declared that the doctrine of the Church has not changed, numerous statements have appeared from individual Bishops, Cardinals, and even Episcopal Conferences, approving what the Magisterium of the Church has never approved.
Why are they seemingly surprised about this happening? Why do they think things would be any different now than they were 50 years ago? I wonder what they will do if continually blown off by the Pope? Will they be brave enough, like ABL, to do what needs to be done? :pray3: :popcorn:
yeah, maybe better to break away and let the church take its course to the bottom.
No, more like the Church is in crisis so we will maintain Her until the hierarchy comes back to it's senses. And that doesn't mean, as some will think/say, "we will become the Church over here." It means that we will continue to uphold the sacraments, preaching and teaching the faithful, and creating Priests for the Church, as has been done for centuries, using the clear Traditional methods. There is no breaking away. Except by the Vatican and oh, so, many of the hierarchy.
Still, some things need to get really bad in order for it to turn around. Look at football teams (soccer), they perform bad one season, they kick the coach, give the players a kick in the butt, and next season they win the league.
Quote from: Sempronius on June 27, 2017, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: dymphna17 on June 26, 2017, 10:25:49 PM
Quote from: Sempronius on June 26, 2017, 09:37:34 PM
Quote from: dymphna17 on June 26, 2017, 08:31:48 PM
It seems these Cardinals have now reached the ABL level of communication with the Vatican regarding the crisis in the Church. ABL was mainly concerned with changes in the Mass while the Cardinals are concerned with changes in Church doctrine for the faithful. Slippery has now met the slope.
QuoteDuring this time, interpretations of some objectively ambiguous passages of the post-synodal Exhortation have publicly been given that are not divergent from, but contrary to, the permanent Magisterium of the Church. Despite the fact that the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith has repeatedly declared that the doctrine of the Church has not changed, numerous statements have appeared from individual Bishops, Cardinals, and even Episcopal Conferences, approving what the Magisterium of the Church has never approved.
Why are they seemingly surprised about this happening? Why do they think things would be any different now than they were 50 years ago? I wonder what they will do if continually blown off by the Pope? Will they be brave enough, like ABL, to do what needs to be done? :pray3: :popcorn:
yeah, maybe better to break away and let the church take its course to the bottom.
No, more like the Church is in crisis so we will maintain Her until the hierarchy comes back to it's senses. And that doesn't mean, as some will think/say, "we will become the Church over here." It means that we will continue to uphold the sacraments, preaching and teaching the faithful, and creating Priests for the Church, as has been done for centuries, using the clear Traditional methods. There is no breaking away. Except by the Vatican and oh, so, many of the hierarchy.
Still, some things need to get really bad in order for it to turn around. Look at football teams (soccer), they perform bad one season, they kick the coach, give the players a kick in the butt, and next season they win the league.
Very well said. Although in soccer it isn't always the same case.