History of the Rosary

Started by Acolyte, August 03, 2014, 12:36:48 PM

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Acolyte

August 03, 2014, 12:36:48 PM
I thought it was here on SD I saw someone mention that early on, the Rosary was prayed with the Aves only consisting of the words ....

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and
blessed is the fruit if thy womb"

Seems it was a thread where someone mentioned Bugnini wanted to revert to this form,  omitting the
" Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

Anyhow, does anyone recognize the thread I've described or who stated the early Rosary only used the first half of the Ave Maria ?

I searched online and I can't find an answer to whether or not the claim is true.

Can anyone recommend a good online  "history of the Rosary " ?


tia
"From the moment we awake in the morning, let us pray continually in the words of holy David: Turn away my eyes, that they may not behold vanity"
St Alphonsus

"I will set my face against you, and you shall fall down before your enemies, and shall be made subject to them that hate you, you shall flee when no man pursueth you"
Leviticus 26:17

"Behold, O God our protector : and look upon the face of Thy Christ" (Ps. 79:20) Here is devotion to the face of Jesus Christ as prophesized by David."
Fr. Lawrence Daniel Carney III

Acolyte

#1
August 03, 2014, 12:44:31 PM
Hmm, I just realized I should be searching "history of the Ave Maria".

"From the moment we awake in the morning, let us pray continually in the words of holy David: Turn away my eyes, that they may not behold vanity"
St Alphonsus

"I will set my face against you, and you shall fall down before your enemies, and shall be made subject to them that hate you, you shall flee when no man pursueth you"
Leviticus 26:17

"Behold, O God our protector : and look upon the face of Thy Christ" (Ps. 79:20) Here is devotion to the face of Jesus Christ as prophesized by David."
Fr. Lawrence Daniel Carney III

Daniel

#2
August 03, 2014, 02:26:43 PM
Yes, the claim is true.  The Ave Maria originally only had the first half.  And I don't think it included the name "Jesus" either.

Source - http://dhspriory.org/thomas/AveMaria.htm (That's Thomas Aquinas's commentary on the Ave Maria and he only comments on the first half because the second half didn't exist back then.  The translator or editor mentions this: "Note: The Hail Mary or Angelical Salutation or Ave Maria in the time of St. Thomas consisted only of the present first part of the prayer. The second part—"Holy Mary, Mother of God," etc.—was added by the Church later.")

edit - Oh, as for the claim about Bugnini wanting to revert it... I have no idea if that's true.

Acolyte

#3
August 03, 2014, 02:37:15 PM
Thanks Daniel. I did find some similar sources after I posted the OP.

When praying the Rosary privately, I've been using only the first part and it's made it easier to stay focused on the Mystery I'm on. I do add the "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" on the last Ave of the 5th decade of whatever Mysteries I'm on.

So going by the dates I've now seen, it seems the first forms of the Rosary did indeed use only the first part.

Thanks again for the link. Got it bookmarked.
"From the moment we awake in the morning, let us pray continually in the words of holy David: Turn away my eyes, that they may not behold vanity"
St Alphonsus

"I will set my face against you, and you shall fall down before your enemies, and shall be made subject to them that hate you, you shall flee when no man pursueth you"
Leviticus 26:17

"Behold, O God our protector : and look upon the face of Thy Christ" (Ps. 79:20) Here is devotion to the face of Jesus Christ as prophesized by David."
Fr. Lawrence Daniel Carney III

Chestertonian

#4
August 03, 2014, 05:29:15 PM
Try reading the secret of the rosary by st louis De Montfort
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

Wicked Papist

#5
August 03, 2014, 06:43:03 PM
Didn't Archbishop Bugnini or someone want the Church to revert to the form of the Ave without the second half?

drummerboy

#6
August 03, 2014, 08:23:06 PM
To slightly divert.... wasn't the phrase "world without end" in the Glory Be added later as well?  I never understood that phrase, and always thought it awkward; its not included in the Office.
- I'll get with the times when the times are worth getting with

"I like grumpy old cusses.  Hope to live long enough to be one" - John Wayne

Daniel

#7
August 03, 2014, 08:29:52 PM
Quote from: drummerboy on August 03, 2014, 08:23:06 PM
To slightly divert.... wasn't the phrase "world without end" in the Glory Be added later as well?  I never understood that phrase, and always thought it awkward; its not included in the Office.
You mean in the prayer itself or in the English translation?  The "world without end" in the English translation is an idiom (I think).  I had no idea what it meant until I learned the prayer in Latin which makes more sense (in English it sounds like it's saying that the world isn't going to end, but that's not what it means at all...)

drummerboy

#8
August 03, 2014, 08:40:52 PM
yes, the English translation.  The latin is In Saecula Saecolorum, right?
- I'll get with the times when the times are worth getting with

"I like grumpy old cusses.  Hope to live long enough to be one" - John Wayne

Wicked Papist

#9
August 03, 2014, 08:42:44 PM
Quote from: drummerboy on August 03, 2014, 08:40:52 PM
yes, the English translation.  The latin is In Saecula Saecolorum, right?

Yes, it is.

Acolyte

#10
August 03, 2014, 10:02:36 PM
Quote from: Chestertonian on August 03, 2014, 05:29:15 PM
Try reading the secret of the rosary by st louis De Montfort

I do have a copy of that title. It's on several sites as well.

Shin has a wonderful collection of Saints Works online ....
http://saintsbooks.net/BooksList.html
"From the moment we awake in the morning, let us pray continually in the words of holy David: Turn away my eyes, that they may not behold vanity"
St Alphonsus

"I will set my face against you, and you shall fall down before your enemies, and shall be made subject to them that hate you, you shall flee when no man pursueth you"
Leviticus 26:17

"Behold, O God our protector : and look upon the face of Thy Christ" (Ps. 79:20) Here is devotion to the face of Jesus Christ as prophesized by David."
Fr. Lawrence Daniel Carney III

Acolyte

#11
August 03, 2014, 10:07:08 PM
Quote from: Wicked Papist on August 03, 2014, 06:43:03 PM
Didn't Archbishop Bugnini or someone want the Church to revert to the form of the Ave without the second half?

I think I read that in a thread here on SD, but I can't recall the title or subject of the thread. Could have been a thread on the canonization of JPII.
"From the moment we awake in the morning, let us pray continually in the words of holy David: Turn away my eyes, that they may not behold vanity"
St Alphonsus

"I will set my face against you, and you shall fall down before your enemies, and shall be made subject to them that hate you, you shall flee when no man pursueth you"
Leviticus 26:17

"Behold, O God our protector : and look upon the face of Thy Christ" (Ps. 79:20) Here is devotion to the face of Jesus Christ as prophesized by David."
Fr. Lawrence Daniel Carney III

Acolyte

#12
August 03, 2014, 10:21:58 PM
"From the moment we awake in the morning, let us pray continually in the words of holy David: Turn away my eyes, that they may not behold vanity"
St Alphonsus

"I will set my face against you, and you shall fall down before your enemies, and shall be made subject to them that hate you, you shall flee when no man pursueth you"
Leviticus 26:17

"Behold, O God our protector : and look upon the face of Thy Christ" (Ps. 79:20) Here is devotion to the face of Jesus Christ as prophesized by David."
Fr. Lawrence Daniel Carney III

Non Nobis

#13
August 03, 2014, 11:38:40 PM
The Catholic Encyclopedia says:

"The official recognition of the Ave Maria in its complete form, though foreshadowed in the words of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, as quoted at the beginning of this article, was finally given in the Roman Breviary of 1568."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm

Stripping the prayer officially back to its first part "to go back to antiquity (or the Bible)" sounds unwise to me.  It's a part of the "change, change, and more change" thinking of modernists.

For private use, of course it is not sinful to use only part of the prayer. But it doesn't sound very traditionalist to me.  What Hail Mary was used by the 3 shepherd children at Fatima?
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Sbyvl36

#14
August 04, 2014, 06:31:51 AM
Quote from: drummerboy on August 03, 2014, 08:23:06 PM
To slightly divert.... wasn't the phrase "world without end" in the Glory Be added later as well?  I never understood that phrase, and always thought it awkward; its not included in the Office.

The original prayer in Latin is:
QuoteGloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto,
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

Which properly translated, reads as:
QuoteGlory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
As it was in the beginning, both now, and always, and to ages of ages. Amen.

Henry VIII screwed around with the translation, and in his infinite wisdom came up with the phrase "world without end".
My blog: sbyvl.wordpress.com

"Hold firmly that our faith is identical with that of the ancients. Deny this, and you dissolve the unity of the Church."
--St. Thomas Aquinas

"Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church."
--Pope Pius IX

"That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive."
--Archbishop Lefebvre

Heliocentricism is idiocy.
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