How is this not a sin?

Started by TandJ, July 23, 2021, 01:51:26 PM

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TandJ

July 23, 2021, 01:51:26 PM
I feel that a lot of traditional Catholics have no problem railing against bishops or watching YouTube videos of others calling bishops gay and other things. Tell me why this isn't the sin of detraction, because it seems to be in my opinion

Justin Martyr

#1
July 23, 2021, 02:00:13 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 01:51:26 PM
I feel that a lot of traditional Catholics have no problem railing against bishops or watching YouTube videos of others calling bishops gay and other things. Tell me why this isn't the sin of detraction, because it seems to be in my opinion

It is a sin. Scripture itself (not to mention Saint Ignatius) states so clearly. The Roman Catechism as promulgated by Trent does as well.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

TandJ

#2
July 23, 2021, 02:26:41 PM
Why is this vice so prevalent among trads?

Jayne

#3
July 23, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 02:26:41 PM
Why is this vice so prevalent among trads?

Because we are human beings and tempted to the same sins that everyone else is.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Justin Martyr

#4
July 23, 2021, 02:37:14 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 02:38:50 PM by Justin Martyr
Quote from: Jayne on July 23, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 02:26:41 PM
Why is this vice so prevalent among trads?

Because we are human beings and tempted to the same sins that everyone else is.

Yep. I sin venially every day. Some days I sin mortally (thanks be to God, far less than I used to). It is an inescapable fact of existence for almost the entire human race. I could probably count on my two hands the number of saints God has given the grace of being free from venial sin to. I could not even begin to fathom the number who flippantly commit mortal sins every day. I can barely begin to fathom the gravity of my own sins; past present and future.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Christina_S

#5
July 23, 2021, 02:46:23 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 02:26:41 PM
Why is this vice so prevalent among trads?
In addition to what Jayne said, I think it's because a lot of trads have been hurt by bishops. Whether it's axing the TLM, obeying Susan from the parish council's every whim, denying the faithful access to the sacraments, or indulging in sketchy/sinful activity, bishops of today DO have a lot to answer for. Then comes the question: who is responsible for keeping the bishops accountable?

According to my limited understanding of ecclesiology, it should be other bishops (fellow successors of the Apostles) who keep their brothers accountable and hold their feet to the fire when needed. However, we know that this doesn't happen much nowadays. According to one bishop that I know fairly well, part of the problem is that any given bishop has dirt on one of his brothers, and that bishop knows that it could be used as blackmail. This dirt could consist of old scandals from seminary days, finances, ministry issues, sex abuse, governance, etc. They're stuck playing a game of politics, and none of them are very good at it.

This is where trads come in and laymen start trying to take the bishops to task for what they have done or failed to do. I agree that it's a sin and it goes too far a lot of the time. But who else is going to call them out on it?
"You cannot be a half-saint; you must be a whole saint or no saint at all." ~St. Therese of Lisieux

Check out the blog that I run with my husband! https://theromanticcatholic.wordpress.com/
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MundaCorMeum

#6
July 23, 2021, 02:47:44 PM
Even the just man sins 7 times a day.  The Church is a hospital for sinners....not a place for those who are perfect.  Perfect holiness is achieved in heaven, not on earth.

MaximGun

#7
July 23, 2021, 02:51:43 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 01:51:26 PM
I feel that a lot of traditional Catholics have no problem railing against bishops or watching YouTube videos of others calling bishops gay and other things. Tell me why this isn't the sin of detraction, because it seems to be in my opinion

Because Bishops are public figures and being a public practicing sodomite is a mortal sin.

No bishop worth his title should be supporting sodomy.

Remember Traditional Catholics were attacking the media when Bishops were raping children and young adults back in the 1990s.  This was deliberately covered up and the victims continued and continued.

It is not detraction when the intention is to shine light on evil clerics.

diaduit

#8
July 23, 2021, 03:02:40 PM
Quote from: MaximGun on July 23, 2021, 02:51:43 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 01:51:26 PM
I feel that a lot of traditional Catholics have no problem railing against bishops or watching YouTube videos of others calling bishops gay and other things. Tell me why this isn't the sin of detraction, because it seems to be in my opinion

Because Bishops are public figures and being a public practicing sodomite is a mortal sin.

No bishop worth his title should be supporting sodomy.

Remember Traditional Catholics were attacking the media when Bishops were raping children and young adults back in the 1990s.  This was deliberately covered up and the victims continued and continued.

It is not detraction when the intention is to shine light on evil clerics.
https://www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/summa-translation/Part%202-2/st2-2-ques73.pdf

Reply to objection 1: As has been explained, it is not detraction to reveal someone's hidden sin by
denouncing him for the sake of his improvement or by accusing him for the sake of the good of public
justice.

TandJ

#9
July 23, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
So Diaduit or Maxim in your opinion it isn't sinful to watch things like Church Militant knowing that they will bash prelates? Would this be contributing to the sin. I struggle to know my own sinfulness and culpability in this because I enjoy watching these things for entertainment. Is this cooperation in a sin? Grave or venial?

Justin Martyr

#10
July 23, 2021, 03:51:49 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 03:54:40 PM by Justin Martyr
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
So Diaduit or Maxim in your opinion it isn't sinful to watch things like Church Militant knowing that they will bash prelates? Would this be contributing to the sin. I struggle to know my own sinfulness and culpability in this because I enjoy watching these things for entertainment. Is this cooperation in a sin? Grave or venial?

While this wasn't addressed to me, I suppose it would depend on how they did the "bashing" on question. Are they merely rebuking him for a particular public fault or are they going beyond that to stirring the pot, insulting him, denying his authority, etc.?
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Michael Wilson

#11
July 23, 2021, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
So Diaduit or Maxim in your opinion it isn't sinful to watch things like Church Militant knowing that they will bash prelates? Would this be contributing to the sin. I struggle to know my own sinfulness and culpability in this because I enjoy watching these things for entertainment. Is this cooperation in a sin? Grave or venial?
If what they are speaking of involves publicly known facts; such as a bishop who has covered up for a number of deviant priests; then there is no sin.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

TandJ

#12
July 23, 2021, 03:55:08 PM Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 04:07:21 PM by TandJ
Many things I suppose aren't publicly know at the time and Church Militant is "breaking" the news story. How does breaking news factor into this equation?

This is why I'm concerned about participation in a sin because this kind of talk is everywhere and if it's a sin to even read it then a person couldn't even read the comments on blogs or Facebook because guaranteed someone on there will say something about a Bishop or Pope.

Justin Martyr

#13
July 23, 2021, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 03:55:08 PM
Many things I suppose aren't publicly know at the time and Church Militant is "breaking" the news story.

If they have legitimate evidence and such faults need to be publically known (like pedophilia), then I would imagine there is no sin provided they approach it the correct way.
The least departure from Tradition leads to a scorning of every dogma of the Faith.
St. Photios the Great, Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs

CANON I: As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.
The Council of Antioch 341, recieved by the Council of Chalcedon

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

TandJ

#14
July 23, 2021, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on July 23, 2021, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: TandJ on July 23, 2021, 03:55:08 PM
Many things I suppose aren't publicly know at the time and Church Militant is "breaking" the news story.

If they have legitimate evidence and such faults need to be publically known (like pedophilia), then I would imagine there is no sin provided they approach it the correct way.

What if we don't need to know. Like the case of so and so Bishop had an Italian model live with him etc
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