If the house was unsafe to the point of paramedics not being able to get in? My dad is recovering from heart surgery, and needs more surgery later. Could have another heart attack any time. There is no discussing or reasoning them out of this. What would you do?
Edit: My Dad's not the hoarder. It's his wife. He enables her.
Wow. If the EMTs truly couldn't get in the house to where your father is, it would be tempting to report them. On the other hand, that would be incredibly stressful for them. Do they have the ability to fix the situation? If not, would it cost a lot of money which they may not have.
Tough call.
Quote from: Lynne on November 08, 2023, 04:43:28 PMWow. If the EMTs truly couldn't get in the house to where your father is, it would be tempting to report them. On the other hand, that would be incredibly stressful for them. Do they have the ability to fix the situation? If not, would it cost a lot of money which they may not have.
Tough call.
I mean, they can
choose to fix the situation, but they won't. Instead, they choose to make it worse, time and again.
Quote from: Bernadette on November 08, 2023, 04:49:06 PMQuote from: Lynne on November 08, 2023, 04:43:28 PMWow. If the EMTs truly couldn't get in the house to where your father is, it would be tempting to report them. On the other hand, that would be incredibly stressful for them. Do they have the ability to fix the situation? If not, would it cost a lot of money which they may not have.
Tough call.
I mean, they can choose to fix the situation, but they won't. Instead, they choose to make it worse, time and again.
Ah. Good for you and your decision.
Edit: My brother and one of my sisters want to report them. Apparently, Dad has been assigned a caseworker who will hopefully check up on him, and something will get done.
Edit: Apparently the caseworker doesn't make home visits. So the situation will stay the same.
Unfortunately I doubt anything will happen. EMT's encounter hoarders more than you would think, and nothing happens to those people. It's not illegal so there's really nothing to be done.
Quote from: drummerboy on November 10, 2023, 02:06:37 PMUnfortunately I doubt anything will happen. EMT's encounter hoarders more than you would think, and nothing happens to those people. It's not illegal so there's really nothing to be done.
In this case, it is illegal. They're only allowed to have four dogs according to the city. Probably to prevent this very situation from happening.
To whom would you even report them? The Po?
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on November 10, 2023, 04:54:55 PMTo whom would you even report them? The Po?
Animal control or the city.
I would not report them, no.
Because I don't believe the city cares.
Your parents might be in a mess but it is THEIR mess.
The same authority you are reporting them to murdered old people in care homes, and on ventilators, 3 years ago by bullying them and locking them up.
Your parents could very well end up on top of a list marked for quiet extermination. Stranger things have happened.
Best to not cooperate with the authorities at all.
You cannot have 5 dogs, but the city gladly keep the abortion clinics and titty bars open.
Awhile back I audited the EMT course at a local community college. We had several live exercises on how to extract people from difficult situations. I work part time as an assistant at a funeral home, and likewise ingenuity is sometimes needed for a removal. The point being, if your father needs to be taken out by emergency medical services they will find a way to do it, and they have a lot of experience.
Hoarding per se is typically not (and shouldn't be) illegal. Immobile rigs rusting out on the front lawn or rotting food and feces piling up inside are issues, but just having too much stuff can be a matter of personal taste. One should be cautious about having the government "take over".
However, later in the thread you mention too many dogs, in my mind that is altogether different than hoarding things. Sanitation and animal cruelty issues may be considerations. I defiantly would involve animal control, or if any of the dogs appear unhealthy take them to the vet or humane society and don't bring them back, but will just removing one or two dogs resolve the issues?
Are there close friends who could be invited to visit? Can the priest stop by for a pastoral visit? Could any of these be persuasive? You mentioned your dad's wife but didn't say "my mother". It's not my place to pry but if her current emotional / mental state doesn't allow her to adequately care for her husband his children may have an obligation to seek a form of guardianship. Attorneys are expensive to talk to, but most places have non-profit non-governmental resource centers for senior citizens, and they may have good advice. Also, hospitals often have a social worker on staff who maybe can address your father's care environment.
There are at least 15 dogs (we suspect more) in a 2 bedroom trailer. These dogs are not house trained. I'm scared my father might get an infection. They don't let anyone come to the house, because they're scared of getting reported. Dad hasn't been to church since my First Communion 30 years ago, and he won't see a priest. He does have a caseworker, but she doesn't make home visits. He's doing his at-home PT at a neighbor's house. I'm coming to the conclusion that there's nothing I can do here. Even if all of the dogs were taken, the wife would just get more off of Craigslist.
And there probably isn't anything you can do, it seems you've done all you could. If you really wanted to "raise hell" you could go up the chain and contact the case worker's manager at the county (parish?) office, and go up to state level if need be. They all answer to somebody.
Quote from: Bernadette on November 12, 2023, 06:53:09 AMThere are at least 15 dogs (we suspect more) in a 2 bedroom trailer.
This information gives more of a perspective. You and your siblings will know best, but if there are other erratic behaviors you might have grounds to consider asking for a guardianship. If nothing else, I would call animal control. Maybe your father's wife could volunteer at the humane society / animal shelter (where I live they are always looking for volunteers to help feed and to socialize the critters, pet the cats, walk the dogs, etc.) and maybe that would fill a void for her?
Quote from: moneil on November 12, 2023, 11:11:38 AMQuote from: Bernadette on November 12, 2023, 06:53:09 AMThere are at least 15 dogs (we suspect more) in a 2 bedroom trailer.
This information gives more of a perspective. You and your siblings will know best, but if there are other erratic behaviors you might have grounds to consider asking for a guardianship. If nothing else, I would call animal control. Maybe your father's wife could volunteer at the humane society / animal shelter (where I live they are always looking for volunteers to help feed and to socialize the critters, pet the cats, walk the dogs, etc.) and maybe that would fill a void for her?
Now my aunt is saying that if we call animal control and the dogs are taken away, the wife would probably kill herself or do something equally drastic, and we'd be responsible. My aunt and one sister say it's none of our business.
It is your business as his daughter and in fact more so than your Aunt. However really there is nothing you can do and sometimes you have to let those who are in over their head with their vice, suffer their own consequences. I say this as someone whose mother was a hoarder (not quite TV programme level but bad all the same) and an alcoholic brother who died suddenly from his addiction.
I would almost guarantee you that you will achieve absolutely nothing by doing this and only cause a bigger rift between you and your father and lessen the chance of you being able to call a priest if he needs one. Hold that line of communication, fragile as it is for that very moment.
The suggestion for the hospital social worker is excellent, I did this for my mother and got all sorts of help in place when she was in her final months, I had a path worn to the local public health nurse for these services and didn't get anywhere, once she stepped in, it fell into place.
Follow Gods will which may be right now, you sit quiet and wait for the moment your Dad needs a priest (just like your late grandmother, it did happen).
QuoteFollow Gods will which may be right now, you sit quiet and wait for the moment your Dad needs a priest (just like your late grandmother, it did happen)
He did agree to accept a rosary from me, so there's hope. I've decided to send him the combat rosary that I won in Gardener's rosary contest. Dad is retired Navy, and loves military history. I explained the history behind the combat rosary and he seemed interested, so I'll send it this week. He should get it before his next surgery.
Quote from: Geremia on November 12, 2023, 04:54:34 PMQuote from: Bernadette on November 08, 2023, 04:04:23 PMWhat would you do?
Help to clean up his house.
That's the most painful thing to do to a hoarder. In their mind there's nothing to clean up. If they were open to the help then yes, do it, but in this case it'd make matters more stressful and worse.
To clean up for them is like me rummaging in your nether regions....its a violation and it sends them over the edge. I've done it, you will be blamed for them losing precious stuff and valuables.
If you have a brother, he needs to go over and tell them to get it straightened out. And the three of you then can team up and get the house cleaned.
The 15 dogs is even worse. Sounds like the woman has fur babies. That sounds nasty.
QuoteNow my aunt is saying that if we call animal control and the dogs are taken away, the wife would probably kill herself or do something equally drastic, and we'd be responsible.
The fur mama's threats are why she is allowed to get away with this bs.
Quote from: james03 on November 13, 2023, 12:05:27 PMIf you have a brother, he needs to go over and tell them to get it straightened out. And the three of you then can team up and get the house cleaned.
I agree with you. As the firstborn and the son, he is traditionally responsible for caring for our parents. But he won't do anything because he's mad that my Dad yelled at him for getting the family involved in his heart attack. So he's over it. I would do it, but half the family is against me in this.
Quote from: james03 on November 13, 2023, 12:05:27 PMThe 15 dogs is even worse. Sounds like the woman has fur babies. That sounds nasty.
I don't think it's even that. They don't mourn them when one of them dies, they just get another one.
Quote from: james03 on November 13, 2023, 12:05:27 PMThe fur mama's threats are why she is allowed to get away with this bs.
You're probably right, but it does complicate things.
This is your brother's responsibility. Do what you can, but don't beat yourself up if it goes down bad. Your Dad is also an adult, and he is ultimately responsible as it is his house and he's the man.
Quote from: drummerboy on November 12, 2023, 10:11:12 PMThat's the most painful thing to do to a hoarder.
Tough love, then.
Quote from: Geremia on November 13, 2023, 06:23:47 PMQuote from: drummerboy on November 12, 2023, 10:11:12 PMThat's the most painful thing to do to a hoarder.
Tough love, then.
Hoarding like in this case is practically a mental/emotional issue that needs treatment to resolve. Or better yet-a priest, but as she is saying they don't want that. In theory intervention by the social worker should lead to some sort of therapy.
Quote from: drummerboy on November 14, 2023, 08:23:06 AMHoarding like in this case is practically a mental/emotional issue that needs treatment to resolve. Or better yet-a priest, but as she is saying they don't want that. In theory intervention by the social worker should lead to some sort of therapy.
Precisely.
Quote from: drummerboy on November 14, 2023, 08:23:06 AMintervention by the social worker should lead to some sort of therapy
Social workers are communist agents.
Far better to seek a priest.
Are priests trained to deal with psychological issues?
Quote from: Bernadette on November 14, 2023, 06:56:45 PMAre priests trained to deal with psychological issues?
Priests/confessors can tell when a penitent needs psychological help.
Exorcists can tell if it's a psychological or demonic issue.
Quote from: Geremia on November 14, 2023, 05:47:03 PMQuote from: drummerboy on November 14, 2023, 08:23:06 AMintervention by the social worker should lead to some sort of therapy
Social workers are communist agents.
Far better to seek a priest.
Please quote my whole post, and not just a selection. I did indeed say a priest would be best, but a "therapist" is better than nothing in this case, as they refuse to see a priest. Perhaps her diocese could provide a listing of counselors or therapists, so at least it's not completely secular
Good news: Dad still has all of the dogs, but his house is at least clean enough now for his home healthcare worker and physical therapist to be able to come in. I'm very relieved. Thank God.
Quote from: Bernadette on November 12, 2023, 03:54:14 PMHe did agree to accept a rosary from me, so there's hope. I've decided to send him the combat rosary that I won in Gardener's rosary contest. Dad is retired Navy, and loves military history. I explained the history behind the combat rosary and he seemed interested, so I'll send it this week. He should get it before his next surgery.
Dad loves the combat rosary. ;D
.
I seem to recall Paul telling us not to drag our Brethren to judgement before the worldly authorities in 1 COR 6. Your father is a man, it isn't your place to dictate his living condition. If he is resolute then that is his decision. If you drag this to the courts then they will take the dogs and probably kill them depending on where you live.
>There are at least 15 dogs (we suspect more) in a 2 bedroom trailer.
Wow...
My point still stands but I understand your concern better...
Quote from: Joseph_3 on January 14, 2024, 06:53:34 PMYour father is a man, it isn't your place to dictate his living condition.
Because he's a man, or because he's an adult?
Because he's a man, or because he's an adult?
[/quote]
Lol, Well I meant because he's an adult.
I do suppose living condition is one thing women have the right to nag us about... Otherwise we'd be happy enough living in tree bark shanties with dirt floors.
My father in law became a hoarder. I won't go into detail but the house became so disgusting that we couldn't visit. I would become physically ill and my husband was upset by the filth his parents were living in. When my father in law died it was hard for the EMTs to get his body out. I wish my in-laws hadn't ended up living like that and if I had to do it again I think I would have called the police anonymously and reported that the house was a fire hazard.
[/quote]
Help to clean up his house.
[/quote]
My brother in law tried to do that. His father had a screaming meltdown. My husband decided it was best to just stay away. Our in-laws could meet us somewhere but we refused to go to the house.
My mother is a hoarder.
My wife and I have cleaned up her car the hoard inevitably returns.
I would only do so after a repeated attempt, and a so called intervention like moment.
If their lives and health were in jeopardy I would give a firm deadline for some positive actions towards improvement, clearing out hoard, therapy, etc. I would warn if they didn't take this action, I would indeed report to adult welfare services.
This is no longer my concern, thank goodness.
I'm sorry.
Had an avalanche of old posts to look at.
Quote from: Bonaventure on March 19, 2024, 01:05:27 PMI'm sorry.
Had an avalanche of old posts to look at.
No problem. Completely understandable. Good to see you back.