Imaginary unseen realm

[Pheo]

There should be many verses in the OT which say a redeemer will save them from their sins, but the Jews say the OT does not say this.

It really doesn't get much more clear than this.  In a sense these Scriptures ceased being their when they rejected God's Convenant.  It's not surprising that many remain blinded to the Truth.

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him: Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth.

[shadow]

Actually thats not at all true. 

The following link is from Jews for Judaism.  The speaker explains the Jewish concept of the messiah and the Old Testament verses which explain what the messiah was supposed to do - he shows the criteria the messiah would have to meet.  I'm sure there is a way to refute this, but I don't know the OT really much.  If you can refute it, I would be interested in seeing the supporting OT scripture verses.  He shows that the messiah was supposed to be an earthly king. 

Actually I enjoy listening to this guy - hes fascinating to listen to and a good speaker.  I've also learned a lot of things about the OT and how Jews understand it.   

One thing you can notice is how his arguements would work to counter Protestant arguments the Jesus was the Messiah; however, the same arguments do not work so well against Catholic beliefs. 

It has to suck to be a Protestant.  All they have is their own beliefs about what they think the Bible teaches.  In many ways they have to have a faith that flies in the face of common sense and reason.  I mean if I were in a system where one church group claims the bible says something is a sin and another group says the bible says its not a sin, I would be confused and probably have doubts about the validity of scripture or I would have to go to the sect that taught what I thought was right and ignore the scriptural arguments against my sect's belief.



Here is the same guy arguing that Jesus did not have to die for our sins.

[Jacafamala]

The "Imaginary unseen realm" is really just a spiritual blindness. If a person is really looking at sacred scripture, which was written over the centuries, and has been proven (through the Dead Sea scrolls) to have changed very negligibly (a minor word or two in Isaiah) and they're also looking the lives of countless saints, then I'm just not sure what more anyone could ask for in terms of proof. It's a mystery to me.