"Once saved, always saved" once again

Heinrich · June 28, 2013, 10:52:39 PM

What are the best arguments against this belief?

james03 · June 28, 2013, 11:07:56 PM

Matt. 18 32-35

Heb. 6 4-6

Heb. 10 26-30

2 Peter 2 20-22

It's all over the bible. Check out Scripture Catholic

Heinrich · June 28, 2013, 11:27:02 PM

Justification. Faith is the foundation, works are necessary. Protestants believe that once one believes, works are no longer necessary. Calvary washed away all sin and therefore nothing else needs to be done. I mentioned the words "absolved" "penance" "mortal sins" to which protestant co worker says we who seek these things and operate in this way are nullifying Christ's sacrifice since we are making ourselves into "higher than God" types, viz. we believe we have to save ourselves through works and dismiss Calvary. My opponent and I cut the conversation off at my statements regarding "Free Will", "non serviam", and "Quis et Deus?". These seemed to stump opponent. We got busy with work and were unable to rejoin argument/conversation. To this I might add a prayer request for the young person who is less than half my age and holds herself in a determined, professional, and calm disposition when interrogating and rebutting me(attempts, that is). She is a student at a well known "Christian" University in Virginia and has a keen intellect, for sure. I am looking for the longball here, the grand slam, a round tripper.

tradne4163 · June 29, 2013, 01:02:44 AM

Quote from: Heinrich on June 28, 2013, 11:27:02 PM
Justification. Faith is the foundation, works are necessary. Protestants believe that once one believes, works are no longer necessary. Calvary washed away all sin and therefore nothing else needs to be done. I mentioned the words "absolved" "penance" "mortal sins" to which protestant co worker says we who seek these things and operate in this way are nullifying Christ's sacrifice since we are making ourselves into "higher than God" types, viz. we believe we have to save ourselves through works and dismiss Calvary. My opponent and I cut the conversation off at my statements regarding "Free Will", "non serviam", and "Quis et Deus?". These seemed to stump opponent. We got busy with work and were unable to rejoin argument/conversation. To this I might add a prayer request for the young person who is less than half my age and holds herself in a determined, professional, and calm disposition when interrogating and rebutting me(attempts, that is). She is a student at a well known "Christian" University in Virginia and has a keen intellect, for sure. I am looking for the longball here, the grand slam, a round tripper.

You're not going to pull that off with a single reference. Scripture Catholic will help, but my advice is a bit different. Leave a little bit of ground for her to fall back to, as it were. Instead of getting her to admit she is wrong on the spot, focus on getting her to concede that you may have a point.
In arguments, people tend to just dig in if they're flat out being told they're wrong. so the above strategy gives them the way to exit gracefully, yet still considering what the opponent says. Remember, the Holy Ghost is ultimately the One whom converts.
Simply present what you find from Scripture Catholic, and ask them to think about it.

Other helpful tips:
It might be easier during a break or something, but have the Protestant actually read the Scripture references. It'll keep the person from focusing on seeing perceived holes.
You may want to point out (if you haven't already) that Once Saved Always saved never existed before the Protestant Revolt, and is not even held by all Protestants today (helpful for pointing out that appealing to the Bible alone is useless)

james03 · June 29, 2013, 06:44:20 AM

Also, ask her why St. Paul says out of Faith Hope and Charity, Charity is the most important. Since we're talking heaven and hell, Faith SHOULD be most important if the prot is correct. And yet the Bible says it is Charity, which is consistent with Catholic soteriology. I let you find the scripture reference.

You might also ask her why she hasn't committed suicide. Point out this shows a lack of faith, which means she isn't really saved, according to her false sect.

james03 · June 29, 2013, 07:05:19 AM

Also, you are conflating arguments. To argue against OSAS, you are arguing FOR the existence of mortal sin. "Works" does play a part, since Charity covers a multitude of sins. But the main argument against OSAS is that if you sin mortally, you will go to hell.

See also Gal. 5 22 (there's another St. Paul quote listing mortal sins. You can find it)

1 Cor. 10 1-15

1 Cor. 9 27

Haven't even gotten to the Gospels. I leave that for you.

Heinrich · June 29, 2013, 09:02:28 AM

Gentlemen, thank you. I will keep you all posted. I will certainly recommend Scripture Catholic. We will see how today goes. The conversation began with me declining a veal bratwurst(I work part time at a German deli-restaurant). I mentioned that I would be happy to have one tomorrow since I do not eat meat on Friday. This intrigued the lass who was very absorbed and fascinated with my explanations on Tradition, fasting, denial, purgatory, etc. Please pray for her and all enemies of the True Faith.

james03 · June 29, 2013, 12:32:33 PM

You might point out to her that scripture mentions fasting. Ask her why her false sect doesn't have any fasting, and yet Catholics have had this on Fridays for a long, long time.

VeraeFidei · June 29, 2013, 07:52:31 PM

"Be perfect like your Father in Heaven is perfect."

Heinrich · July 01, 2013, 05:36:08 PM

Quote from: james03 on June 29, 2013, 12:32:33 PM
You might point out to her that scripture mentions fasting. Ask her why her false sect doesn't have any fasting, and yet Catholics have had this on Fridays for a long, long time.

While I am consistent in denial on Fridays(Wednesday, too), I certainly do not fast.

No updates on the conversion attempts. Will see little sola scripturess tomorrow. I am sure she was able to give her deacon father and missionary family a good earful.

Thank yous for the time to reply and help.

james03 · July 04, 2013, 08:14:27 AM

You don't fast in lent? Also, abstaining from meat is certainly a form of fasting. Her false sect is ignoring the bible and does not teach any form of fasting. Why do they rebel against The Word?

Heinrich · July 04, 2013, 09:06:18 AM

Quote from: james03 on July 04, 2013, 08:14:27 AM
You don't fast in lent? Also, abstaining from meat is certainly a form of fasting. Her false sect is ignoring the bible and does not teach any form of fasting. Why do they rebel against The Word?

Yes. I fast in Lent. I thought we were talking about Fridays throughout the year, outside of Lent.

moneil · July 04, 2013, 11:33:14 AM

Thank you for starting this thread Heinrich, it is a critically important topic. I especially think so because I've known a number of people raised in the Catholic Faith (including those as old as I who were catechized and received their Baptism, First Communion, and Confirmation before VII) who later became enthralled by the "ways of the world". Fortunately many come home at some point but many also become enthralled by protestant fundamentalism. I often find this latter group more difficult to talk to than those still focused on the "ways of the world".

One scripture to include in the discussion is the second chapter of St. James, especially verses 14 – 26, verse 26 reading For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

As an aside, I've had the occasional habit (not approved by many here I'm sure) of listening to fundamentalist preachers on the radio, or on You Tube once in awhile (long story as to how I acquired this eccentricity, but never because I've found any credence in the discourse). Over time I've observed that though a favorite "proof text" from Second Timothy 2:16-17 is All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work. (and there is that "works" word again), it has seemed to me that there are certain scriptures that one NEVER hears a KJV preacher expound on. A couple that come immediately to mind are Our Lord's Words that he will give us His very flesh and blood to eat and drink, and Our Lady proclaiming that "Henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (which fundamentalists don't). As I don't have the best "spontaneous recall" memory in the world I'm setting up a Springpad notebook (so it will be readily available on my phone or tablet) of these scriptures (especially relating to the Eucharist and our Marian devotion, but many other areas also) to share with fundamentalists I may end up in discussion with. I've observed that they are also often shocked when they find a Catholic who can cite "chapter and verse" as they often assume that we are ignorant of the bible.

james03 · July 04, 2013, 01:42:47 PM

Good stuff, but I repeat, the topic is OSAS, not Sola Fide. So the thing to show is that sin can lead to a loss of salvation.

Prots will always try to change the topic when you nail them on something. Stick to one topic and insist they deal with the scripture for that particular topic.

OCLittleFlower · July 05, 2013, 11:30:26 PM

I agree, once you're saved, it's forever. However, we aren't saved until death.