'Venerating' the dead you think are saints

[Kaesekopf]

So, what's the traditional way to venerate those deceased who you're pretty sure are saints (they just aren't canonized yet)? 

I know there's praying and asking for their intercession, visiting their gravesite, etc, but what other stuff is there that Catholics can 'licitly' do? 

Like, we can use ABL as an example of someone, if need be, who I'm pretty sure we'd all agree is saintly/a saint.

Also, would it be improper to say a votive office (breviary-wise) on their death dates?  (Privately, not publicly).

[Heinrich]

This is a great question as I look forward to answers from the learned here.

I recently encountered this issue myself: a report of a death(in our parish email) and a request for prayers of repose. I thought, "No. I am asking (the deceased) to pray for me/us. From what I know, this individual is in Heaven." Of course one must pray with earnestness for the family and God's will. I hope, as you say, that my thoughts in this matter are 'licit'.

[aquinas138]

Obviously not authoritative, but I think an Office-style prayer would be inappropriate. It just seems wrong to sing Iste Confessor about someone not even beatified. Even if said privately, it still has the character of the Church's public prayer. But, since you've got your Breviary at hand, it's probably better to turn to the back and pray the Officium Defunctorum for the person in question. 

After praying for their repose, a brief prayer to the Lord asking that, if it be His will, so-and-so be raised to the altars seems proper. Apart from that, I think asking the person's intercession is fine. Perhaps a request "through the intercession of your servant/handmaid N." would be appropriate.

[Kaesekopf]

Obviously not authoritative, but I think an Office-style prayer would be inappropriate. It just seems wrong to sing Iste Confessor about someone not even beatified. Even if said privately, it still has the character of the Church's public prayer. But, since you've got your Breviary at hand, it's probably better to turn to the back and pray the Officium Defunctorum for the person in question. 

After praying for their repose, a brief prayer to the Lord asking that, if it be His will, so-and-so be raised to the altars seems proper. Apart from that, I think asking the person's intercession is fine. Perhaps a request "through the intercession of your servant/handmaid N." would be appropriate.

This is why I ask!   

I agree with your reasoning, by the way.  That's my inclination, as well.  But, it helps to get confirmation from others who know more. 

[Miriam_M]

I agree with the poster aquinas.  I have a sense that certain people may be in Heaven, but find it presumptuous to venerate or pray to them.  I keep my prayers to officially recognized, pre-V2 Saints.

[Kaesekopf]

Would perhaps co-opting this prayer (or those like it) be more appropriate, with respect to the dead who have no official cult yet?

God, our Father, protector of the poor and defender of the widow and orphan, you called your priest, Father Michael J. McGivney, to be an apostle of Christian family life and to lead the young to the generous service of their neighbor. Through the example of his life and virtue may we follow your Son, Jesus  Christ, more closely, fulfilling his commandment of charity and building up his Body which is the Church. Let the inspiration of your servant prompt us to greater confidence in your love so that we may continue his work of caring for the needy and the outcast. We humbly ask that you glorify your  venerable servant Father Michael J. McGivney on earth according to the design of your holy will. Through his intercession, grant the favor I now present (here make your request). Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Our Father Hail Mary Glory be to the Father

[Pheo]

I agree with the poster aquinas.  I have a sense that certain people may be in Heaven, but find it presumptuous to venerate or pray to them.  I keep my prayers to officially recognized, pre-V2 Saints.

It's a bit of a catch 22 though isn't it?  Part of the process of canonization involves (or used to involve...) miracles attributed to that person's intercession.  That implies some sort of prayer, so it must be permitted on some level.  I agree that Office style prayers are probably inappropriate, especially given their liturgical character.

[Kaesekopf]

Exactly why I ask, pheo. 

Can't be a saint without intercession, so I'm wondering what the best way is to do that. 

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[Chestertonian]

So, what's the traditional way to venerate those deceased who you're pretty sure are saints (they just aren't canonized yet)? 

I know there's praying and asking for their intercession, visiting their gravesite, etc, but what other stuff is there that Catholics can 'licitly' do? 

Like, we can use ABL as an example of someone, if need be, who I'm pretty sure we'd all agree is saintly/a saint.

Also, would it be improper to say a votive office (breviary-wise) on their death dates?  (Privately, not publicly).

Id be hesitant to pray to anyone who didn't die before the age of reason, didn't die for their faith or die immediately after baptism.

Even then there are sinful attachments and so on

[aquinas138]

Increasingly, I have though that prayers that involve a bit of presumption on my part should be kept as short as possible. If there is not a prayer in one of my prayer books for EXACTLY what I'm praying for, then I keep it short. When praying for someone, I think something like "Lord, have mercy on your servant/handmaid N." is best. God knows what is best for them, and I may be tempted to sinful pride if I begin praying for what I think they need.

For those we think are saints, obviously there should be a cult before there is a canonization; like I said above, adding "through the intercession of your servant/handmaid N." to my usual prayers would be simple and as far as I would go. But that's just me. I think the prayer KK posted is perfectly fine; it's an approved prayer, and is suitably restrained in its expression. I like effusive Eastern-style prayers, but I think those should certainly be reserved for canonized saints.

And even if we think someone died in the odor of sanctity, we should still pray for their repose until they are canonized!

[Non Nobis]

...Through his intercession, grant the favor I now present (here make your request). Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
...

This seems reasonable.  But does "through his intercession" assume that he is in heaven?

I agree with the poster aquinas.  I have a sense that certain people may be in Heaven, but find it presumptuous to venerate or pray to them.  I keep my prayers to officially recognized, pre-V2 Saints.

It's a bit of a catch 22 though isn't it?  Part of the process of canonization involves (or used to involve...) miracles attributed to that person's intercession.  That implies some sort of prayer, so it must be permitted on some level.  I agree that Office style prayers are probably inappropriate, especially given their liturgical character.

Some sort of prayer, yes.  How do simple people who do not know the formal prayers such as Kaesekopf presented pray to a "possible" saint?

...
And even if we think someone died in the odor of sanctity, we should still pray for their repose until they are canonized!

This, absolutely.


I sometimes pray like this (maybe it is too conditional?):  X, if you are in heaven, please help me/us... Lord, otherwise accept my prayers to help X in purgatory.

[Kaesekopf]

But then how does a cultus begin?

I dont mean to cast aspersions at anyone, but without the laity fostering devotion towards a dead person, how can they hope to reach the altars?  Yknow? 

(So, im trying to figure out whats appropriate for a layman)

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[Matto]

But then how does a cultus begin?

I think it is good for the laity to foster devotions to the dead who they believe have lead saintly lives and are in heaven. If they really are in heaven, their devotion will be rewarded with miracles and then they can be recognized as saints by the Church. Padre Pio was prayed to by millions of people and there were many miracles attributed to him before he was beatified or canonized. I think a good example is Saint Benedict Joseph Labre. He was basically a homeless man in Rome who visited Churches. When he died the crowds of Rome were moved and thought he was a saint and the city was full of cries "The saint has died, the saint has died." And people came to visit his body and prayed to him and he became famous and there were many miracles and all of this happened before the Church declared him to be in heaven.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/stben.htm

[MundaCorMeum]

Would perhaps co-opting this prayer (or those like it) be more appropriate, with respect to the dead who have no official cult yet?

God, our Father, protector of the poor and defender of the widow and orphan, you called your priest, Father Michael J. McGivney, to be an apostle of Christian family life and to lead the young to the generous service of their neighbor. Through the example of his life and virtue may we follow your Son, Jesus  Christ, more closely, fulfilling his commandment of charity and building up his Body which is the Church. Let the inspiration of your servant prompt us to greater confidence in your love so that we may continue his work of caring for the needy and the outcast. We humbly ask that you glorify your  venerable servant Father Michael J. McGivney on earth according to the design of your holy will. Through his intercession, if he be in heaven, grant the favor I now present (here make your request). Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Our Father Hail Mary Glory be to the Father

Maybe adding the bolded would cover things, and not fall into presumption?   For canonization miracles, I always assumed people would pray something along the lines of, "<name>, if you are in heaven, please grant this request"...or, whatever. 

[Sempronius]

You guys are talking as if the modern church has the catholicus sensus to declare someone a saint