VII reforms destroy the priesthood with an invalid rite of consecrating bishops

[Michael Wilson]

While everyone is distracted by the question of whether or not the new rite of episcopal consecration is valid or not, the elimination of Ordinary Jurisdiction and Successors of the Apostles carries on quietly, without anyone noticing.

Only 10 men consecrated validly consecrated and appointed by a pope or impostor who had perhaps ordinary jurisdiction through common error are still alive (per: https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/sordb2.htm). How long before any man who could reasonably claim to have valid sacramental orders and ordinary jurisdiction is even alive?

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders; secondly a fake Pope who is accepted by "common error" to be the true Pope, would have jurisdiction supplied by the Church, and could appoint bishops to residential sees; also Cardinal electors. The Church cannot defect; however if Vatican II is a true Council and the Conciliar Popes are true Popes, then the Church has defected. Either these men are fake Popes and the Council is not a Church Council, but jurisdiction and true bishops still survives, or the Catholic Church is just like any other fake religious body, that can promulgate false doctrines, harmful/sinful discipline and lead souls to sin and perdition.

[awkward customer]

In my opinion, I think he makes a strong case that it at possibly dubious/invalid.

The issue for me is, and then what?

Pastor Aeturnus of Vatican I infallibly declared that the Holy Roman Church shall have pastors and shepherds forever. A pastor and shepherd is a sacramental bishop with ordinary jurisdiction.

If we concede that Bergoglio and the Conciliar Popes and Hierarchy are not this, this is still a huge issue.

You said:

While everyone is distracted by arguments over the liturgical reforms, Latin, whether the Pope is the Pope, women in trousers, the consecration of Russia etc, the elimination of the Episcopacy carries on quietly, without anyone noticing.

I've been trying to work out how long it would take destroy the priesthood in this way - a generation at the most.  How long before the only valid bishops and priests in the world are Trads?

I respond:

While everyone is distracted by the question of whether or not the new rite of episcopal consecration is valid or not, the elimination of Ordinary Jurisdiction and Successors of the Apostles carries on quietly, without anyone noticing.

Only 10 men consecrated validly consecrated and appointed by a pope or impostor who had perhaps ordinary jurisdiction through common error are still alive (per: https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/sordb2.htm). How long before any man who could reasonably claim to have valid sacramental orders and ordinary jurisdiction is even alive?

Yes, what happens now if there really are only 10 Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction currently alive in the world.  Are they still alive, even? I clicked on the link but got 'page not found'.

Obviously the Church cannot defect.  At the same time, Pastor Aeturnus declares that the Church shall have 'pastors and shepherd until the end of time'.  I'm sure 'end of time' is the wording.  In which case, given that the Church cannot defect and we know this for sure, then what else is there to conclude than that we are at the end of time, or nearly at it, given that 10 Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction are still alive even if we don't know if they're Modernists or not.

If the Sedes and Fr Cekada are right, what other explanation can there be?  The "then what" still remains, of course, and all I can think of saying right now is relax and keep the Faith because there's nothing anyone can do about it.

[Bonaventure]

The most senior Ukrainian Rite bishop was appointed in 1971:

https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/blosten.html

Syro Malabar, 1973:


https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bthoo.html

I wonder how reasonably late one could stretch common error.

John Lane and I discussed this about 10-12 years ago. He was of the mind that, this current sede vacante period could not last no longer than 70 years. Shall we give Paul VI up to 1970, 1975??

Have you ever considered entertained that perhaps R&R could be correct, as a third conclusion?

[awkward customer]

While everyone is distracted by the question of whether or not the new rite of episcopal consecration is valid or not, the elimination of Ordinary Jurisdiction and Successors of the Apostles carries on quietly, without anyone noticing.

Only 10 men consecrated validly consecrated and appointed by a pope or impostor who had perhaps ordinary jurisdiction through common error are still alive (per: https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/sordb2.htm). How long before any man who could reasonably claim to have valid sacramental orders and ordinary jurisdiction is even alive?

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders; secondly a fake Pope who is accepted by "common error" to be the true Pope, would have jurisdiction supplied by the Church, and could appoint bishops to residential sees; also Cardinal electors. The Church cannot defect; however if Vatican II is a true Council and the Conciliar Popes are true Popes, then the Church has defected. Either these men are fake Popes and the Council is not a Church Council, but jurisdiction and true bishops still survives, or the Catholic Church is just like any other fake religious body, that can promulgate false doctrines, harmful/sinful discipline and lead souls to sin and perdition.

I hope this is the explanation which means it's not the end of time.

[Bonaventure]

Hopefully this link works:

https://catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/sordb2.html

In the 90s and early 2000s, many sedes held out hope that a "Pian bishop" (one appointed by Pius XII) would emerge. That did not happen.

[awkward customer]

Have you ever considered entertained that perhaps R&R could be correct, as a third conclusion?

No, because R&R leads to a defecting Church and we know that the Church cannot defect.  And it seems that Michael Wilson's explanation above can't save the day either.

[Baylee]

While everyone is distracted by the question of whether or not the new rite of episcopal consecration is valid or not, the elimination of Ordinary Jurisdiction and Successors of the Apostles carries on quietly, without anyone noticing.

Only 10 men consecrated validly consecrated and appointed by a pope or impostor who had perhaps ordinary jurisdiction through common error are still alive (per: https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/sordb2.htm). How long before any man who could reasonably claim to have valid sacramental orders and ordinary jurisdiction is even alive?

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders; secondly a fake Pope who is accepted by "common error" to be the true Pope, would have jurisdiction supplied by the Church, and could appoint bishops to residential sees; also Cardinal electors. The Church cannot defect; however if Vatican II is a true Council and the Conciliar Popes are true Popes, then the Church has defected. Either these men are fake Popes and the Council is not a Church Council, but jurisdiction and true bishops still survives, or the Catholic Church is just like any other fake religious body, that can promulgate false doctrines, harmful/sinful discipline and lead souls to sin and perdition.

This didn't go over so well.  Maybe you should stick with the jokes. 

[LausTibiChriste]

The most senior Ukrainian Rite bishop was appointed in 1971:

https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/blosten.html

Syro Malabar, 1973:


https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bthoo.html

I wonder how reasonably late one could stretch common error.

John Lane and I discussed this about 10-12 years ago. He was of the mind that, this current sede vacante period could not last no longer than 70 years. Shall we give Paul VI up to 1970, 1975??

Have you ever considered entertained that perhaps R&R could be correct, as a third conclusion?

What does the age of the Eastern bishops have to do with anything?

[awkward customer]

In my opinion, I think he makes a strong case that it at possibly dubious/invalid.

The issue for me is, and then what?

Pastor Aeturnus of Vatican I infallibly declared that the Holy Roman Church shall have pastors and shepherds forever. A pastor and shepherd is a sacramental bishop with ordinary jurisdiction.

If we concede that Bergoglio and the Conciliar Popes and Hierarchy are not this, this is still a huge issue.

There must be a way of solving this problem?

If Trad Bishops don't have Ordinary Jurisdiction and there are only 10 Bishops left alive who do and who were consecrated in the Traditional rite, surely this can be resolved.  Maybe no-one has thought of it yet.

Hopefully someone will think of a solution soon.  Because if the Eastern Rite Bishops can't save the day and there's no visible hierarchy left, then it must be the end of the world.

I'm banking on a solution being found if or when the time comes.

[awkward customer]

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders ....

If there are only 10 validly ordained Bishops left in the Western Church and the Eastern Catholic Bishops somehow step in to save the day once the last Western Bishop has died, would that put a new slant on the prediction that "salvation will come from the East"?

[LausTibiChriste]

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders ....

If there are only 10 validly ordained Bishops left in the Western Church and the Eastern Catholic Bishops somehow step in to save the day once the last Western Bishop has died, would that put a new slant on the prediction that "salvation will come from the East"?

I have said it before on here, but I am personally convinced that the Eastern Rites will play a pivotal role in the revival of the Church.


They have (for the most part) kept their sacraments intact and made no changes after V2. Usually (though not always) priests and Bishops in the East will be consecrated by priests and bishops from the East.

I think God is keeping them "hidden" for a good reason (not that God has any bad reasons for doing things lol)

[awkward customer]

I have said it before on here, but I am personally convinced that the Eastern Rites will play a pivotal role in the revival of the Church.


They have (for the most part) kept their sacraments intact and made no changes after V2. Usually (though not always) priests and Bishops in the East will be consecrated by priests and bishops from the East.

I think God is keeping them "hidden" for a good reason (not that God has any bad reasons for doing things lol)

Maybe the West will be saved by the East in more ways than one.

The Eastern Catholics save the Western Church.  The Eastern Orthodox Russians make a decisive stand against the Western globalists. 

Salvation from the East ....

[Stubborn]

No-one is claiming to have any Authority.  They are only stating their opinions. And every one of the Modernist reformers of Vatican II was ordained and consecrated validly, which means what, exactly?

On the subject of the thread - in your opinion, does Fr Cekada's claim that the NO rite for consecrating bishops is invalid hold water?  Is he right or wrong?

According to Fr. Hesse, Fr. Cekada is wrong. Per Fr. Hesse the new rite of consecration is worded more clearly than the old rite. I will post the video of him saying so if I find it.

[Baylee]

I felt like it.

In this thread:

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?msg=631270

You brought up the issue of sacramental validity, when the OP was only speaking about the Novus Ordo Missae.

Am I not allowed to do the same as you?

It also directly relates to your words of:

Meanwhile, could it be that soon the only bishops and priests left will be Trad?

Being a sacramental bishop does not mean that these men have the same rights, prerogatives, etc as a bishop in 1957.

You can, but I started this thread after Kaesekopf's intervention in the other thread, precisely to discuss this one subject.  And it surprised me that you would intervene with a mammoth sized post on only a vaguely related topic.

Your second point is fair enough though and raises some important questions.  What would happen in such a situation?

Meanwhile, that particular situation is only possible if the NO rite for consecrating bishops isn't valid.

What's your opinion on this?  Does Fr Cekada have a point?  Is he right?

Yes, I think he is right.  For me, the other issue about ordinary jurisdiction, etc does not affect my decision to only go to certainly valid priests who clearly speak out against Vatican II for the Sacraments.  And right now from what I can tell, generally speaking, the only places I can find such clergy is in a sede chapel or a Resistance chapel.  It used to be that that was true of the SSPX as well, but as they continue to allow Novus Ordo consecrated "bishops" into their ranks and to refrain from speaking out against Vatican II and the NO Hierarchy, that becomes an obvious problem going forward. 

[Baylee]

The Eastern Catholic rites all have valid orders ....

If there are only 10 validly ordained Bishops left in the Western Church and the Eastern Catholic Bishops somehow step in to save the day once the last Western Bishop has died, would that put a new slant on the prediction that "salvation will come from the East"?

I have said it before on here, but I am personally convinced that the Eastern Rites will play a pivotal role in the revival of the Church.


They have (for the most part) kept their sacraments intact and made no changes after V2. Usually (though not always) priests and Bishops in the East will be consecrated by priests and bishops from the East.

I think God is keeping them "hidden" for a good reason (not that God has any bad reasons for doing things lol)

Unfortunately, the Eastern Rite's Code of Canon Law of 1990 does include some Vatican II type theology and I don't recall the Eastern bishops ever denouncing Vatican II.