Protestants love to brag how they just go to God for forgiveness, as I'm sure most of us here already know. Couldn't the Catholic respond by asking if they baptized themselves as well? Both Baptism and Confession bring the soul to life from death, and yet, in what is the most crucial element of becoming a Christian and gaining salvation, Christ demands the someone else, and not ourselves, "bring us in." Of course this has to do with becoming members of the mystical Body of Christ, and Catholic theology teaches that sin is an offense against God and neighbor, thus the reason for demanding confession to another (a priest); and I already know there are bigger issues that this leads too, but wouldn't it open some interesting doors, so to speak?
Most Prots don't especially care about baptism.
Quote from: Kreuzritter on November 01, 2019, 01:51:13 PM
Most Prots don't especially care about baptism.
Does your type of protestantism?
Quote from: Heinrich on November 01, 2019, 03:10:13 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter on November 01, 2019, 01:51:13 PM
Most Prots don't especially care about baptism.
Does your type of protestantism?
Funny one. What, I'm a Prot because I don't believe in a pagan philosophical deity, subscribe to the Pharisaism of Stoic natural law theory, think Mary redeemed us, or regard Pope Bozo Bergoglio as infallible "head of the Church"?
It seems to be a good argument; but many Protestants do not believe that Baptism gives us Sanctfying Grace; in fact, many Protestant groups do not believe that man becomes holy through the infusion of Sanctifying Grace in the soul; they only believe in "fiducial justifycation"; the way Luther explained it, was that Christ's merits cover us like snow covers a dung heap, so that we appear before God as just, not because we are interiorly and truly just, but because, God doesn't regard our soul, but the merits of Christ that cover us.
In principle it's a good argument IF they acknowledge the necessity of baptism and the inability of one to baptize themselves.
One could start with the answer of the Eunuch to Philip, insofar as necessity of another to explain the Scriptures.
Also, in Acts, the Apostles did not tell people to baptize, but themselves did it.
Also, the man at the pool who had no one to take him to the waters when the angel stirred them. The invalid lowered through the roof when Jesus forgave his sins and then commanded him to rise and walk. Etc.
It is key though to not fall into the trap of arguing a single approach since they could counter with things like "thy faith has made thee whole."
So one needs to stress both ordinary and extraordinary methods of grace.
Protestants play a vital role of bringing people to Christ when the Catholic church rejects them. It is somewhat unfortunate that protestant entitle themselves to all kinds of privilegrs, such as direct access unconditionally to the Lord Jesus Christ, but these little conceited sins are nothing compared to the huge service they do for the Lord Jesus Christ by bringing people to Him where Catholics can't.
Quote from: gsas on November 04, 2019, 01:54:20 AM
Protestants play a vital role of bringing people to Christ when the Catholic church rejects them. It is somewhat unfortunate that protestant entitle themselves to all kinds of privilegrs, such as direct access unconditionally to the Lord Jesus Christ, but these little conceited sins are nothing compared to the huge service they do for the Lord Jesus Christ by bringing people to Him where Catholics can't.
Who does the Catholic Church reject, pray tell?
Quote from: mikemac on November 06, 2019, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 04, 2019, 01:54:20 AM
Protestants play a vital role of bringing people to Christ when the Catholic church rejects them. It is somewhat unfortunate that protestant entitle themselves to all kinds of privilegrs, such as direct access unconditionally to the Lord Jesus Christ, but these little conceited sins are nothing compared to the huge service they do for the Lord Jesus Christ by bringing people to Him where Catholics can't.
Who does the Catholic Church reject, pray tell?
The Catholic Church rejects at minimum the following people. (I know this because they went to the Church by my personal recommendation, seeking the true apostolic hand of Christ, only to be turned away.)
1. People of multiple marriages. Either series of divorces or polygamous households. Rejected, even though this is the exact environment where the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
2. Proud highly educated people in high academic positions, some in government offices, who actively have been hating the Lord Jesus Christ, but I convinced them to give Him a chance.
3. Prosecuted Muslims who now understand the Mercy and Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in contrast to cons like Allah and other lies, trembling in fear of their own state / religious police, these people are would-be Catholics and get rejection instead of encouragement at the Church steps where they risk their lives if they are seen / caught. (Do you know how much work it is to get them even this far?)
Quote from: gsas on November 08, 2019, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 06, 2019, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 04, 2019, 01:54:20 AM
Protestants play a vital role of bringing people to Christ when the Catholic church rejects them. It is somewhat unfortunate that protestant entitle themselves to all kinds of privilegrs, such as direct access unconditionally to the Lord Jesus Christ, but these little conceited sins are nothing compared to the huge service they do for the Lord Jesus Christ by bringing people to Him where Catholics can't.
Who does the Catholic Church reject, pray tell?
The Catholic Church rejects at minimum the following people. (I know this because they went to the Church by my personal recommendation, seeking the true apostolic hand of Christ, only to be turned away.)
1. People of multiple marriages. Either series of divorces or polygamous households. Rejected, even though this is the exact environment where the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
Nonsense. The person with a series of divorces would have to live in chastity. Obviously the polygamist would have to give up their polygamous lifestyle. The Catholic Church would not reject either. The apostles did not live a series of divorces or a polygamous lifestyle when the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
2. Proud highly educated people in high academic positions, some in government offices, who actively have been hating the Lord Jesus Christ, but I convinced them to give Him a chance.
These people clearly did not get turned away by the Catholic Church if they swallowed their pride and were sincere about amending their ways. It sounds like there is not a lot of truth in this on their part.
3. Prosecuted Muslims who now understand the Mercy and Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in contrast to cons like Allah and other lies, trembling in fear of their own state / religious police, these people are would-be Catholics and get rejection instead of encouragement at the Church steps where they risk their lives if they are seen / caught. (Do you know how much work it is to get them even this far?)
I simply do not believe this. What country? What city/area? What Catholic parish? Who was the priest that was suppose to have rejected these former Muslims?
My reply is in red.
Quote from: mikemac on November 08, 2019, 09:00:01 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 08, 2019, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 06, 2019, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 04, 2019, 01:54:20 AM
Protestants play a vital role of bringing people to Christ when the Catholic church rejects them. It is somewhat unfortunate that protestant entitle themselves to all kinds of privilegrs, such as direct access unconditionally to the Lord Jesus Christ, but these little conceited sins are nothing compared to the huge service they do for the Lord Jesus Christ by bringing people to Him where Catholics can't.
Who does the Catholic Church reject, pray tell?
The Catholic Church rejects at minimum the following people. (I know this because they went to the Church by my personal recommendation, seeking the true apostolic hand of Christ, only to be turned away.)
1. People of multiple marriages. Either series of divorces or polygamous households. Rejected, even though this is the exact environment where the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
Nonsense. The person with a series of divorces would have to live in chastity. Obviously the polygamist would have to give up their polygamous lifestyle. The Catholic Church would not reject either. The apostles did not live a series of divorces or a polygamous lifestyle when the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
2. Proud highly educated people in high academic positions, some in government offices, who actively have been hating the Lord Jesus Christ, but I convinced them to give Him a chance.
These people clearly did not get turned away by the Catholic Church if they swallowed their pride and were sincere about amending their ways. It sounds like there is not a lot of truth in this on their part.
3. Prosecuted Muslims who now understand the Mercy and Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in contrast to cons like Allah and other lies, trembling in fear of their own state / religious police, these people are would-be Catholics and get rejection instead of encouragement at the Church steps where they risk their lives if they are seen / caught. (Do you know how much work it is to get them even this far?)
I simply do not believe this. What country? What city/area? What Catholic parish? Who was the priest that was suppose to have rejected these former Muslims?
My reply is in red.
So, are you saying that the Church forces people to divorce if they have a past life of multiple marriage? I know that they have to go to tribunals and lie to renounce their earlier marriages. This is what turns them away. Also nobody I know understand how this is dogmatic.
The added problem if you are in a Muslim country is, that when you renounce your marriage then your children become legally orphans, which brings them up on the government's radar, very dangerous.
Our Church has to do better, and used to do better. But now our Church just turns people away like this and on many other ways. Our Church turned away even Elisabeth Kindleman who brought the Flame of Love of the Immaculate Heart of Mary!
Quote from: gsas on November 09, 2019, 03:44:42 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 08, 2019, 09:00:01 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 08, 2019, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 06, 2019, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 04, 2019, 01:54:20 AM
Protestants play a vital role of bringing people to Christ when the Catholic church rejects them. It is somewhat unfortunate that protestant entitle themselves to all kinds of privilegrs, such as direct access unconditionally to the Lord Jesus Christ, but these little conceited sins are nothing compared to the huge service they do for the Lord Jesus Christ by bringing people to Him where Catholics can't.
Who does the Catholic Church reject, pray tell?
The Catholic Church rejects at minimum the following people. (I know this because they went to the Church by my personal recommendation, seeking the true apostolic hand of Christ, only to be turned away.)
1. People of multiple marriages. Either series of divorces or polygamous households. Rejected, even though this is the exact environment where the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
Nonsense. The person with a series of divorces would have to live in chastity. Obviously the polygamist would have to give up their polygamous lifestyle. The Catholic Church would not reject either. The apostles did not live a series of divorces or a polygamous lifestyle when the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
2. Proud highly educated people in high academic positions, some in government offices, who actively have been hating the Lord Jesus Christ, but I convinced them to give Him a chance.
These people clearly did not get turned away by the Catholic Church if they swallowed their pride and were sincere about amending their ways. It sounds like there is not a lot of truth in this on their part.
3. Prosecuted Muslims who now understand the Mercy and Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in contrast to cons like Allah and other lies, trembling in fear of their own state / religious police, these people are would-be Catholics and get rejection instead of encouragement at the Church steps where they risk their lives if they are seen / caught. (Do you know how much work it is to get them even this far?)
I simply do not believe this. What country? What city/area? What Catholic parish? Who was the priest that was suppose to have rejected these former Muslims?
My reply is in red.
So, are you saying that the Church forces people to divorce if they have a past life of multiple marriage? I know that they have to go to tribunals and lie to renounce their earlier marriages. This is what turns them away. Also nobody I know understand how this is dogmatic.
The added problem if you are in a Muslim country is, that when you renounce your marriage then your children become legally orphans, which brings them up on the government's radar, very dangerous.
Our Church has to do better, and used to do better. But now our Church just turns people away like this and on many other ways. Our Church turned away even Elisabeth Kindleman who brought the Flame of Love of the Immaculate Heart of Mary!
Are you even Catholic?
If you were then you would know that the Church does not force people to divorce; it doesn't even recognize divorce.
You didn't answer my questions. What country? What city/area? What Catholic parish? Who was the priest that was suppose to have rejected these former Muslims?
What are you talking about, the Church approved Elizabeth Kindelmann's messages. Her local ordinary approved them; that's all it takes for them to be worthy of belief. Besides her local bishop, Cardinal Péter Erdö the primate of Hungary approved them. She also drew the support of Cardinal Archbishop Bernardino Echeverría Ruiz of Guayaquil. Other bishops that supported her messages included prelates from Acapulco, Celaya, Tuxila, Hermosillo, Mexico City, and Durango. After requesting approval of the global Church for the organization based on Flame of Love, Cardinal Ruiz was sent a letter from the Vatican's J. Francis Stafford, president of the Pontifical Council for the laity, encouraging him "to take every measure for the association to give abundant fruits among its members" and inviting him "to continue with the tender task of spiritual accompaniment."
I feel like I'm wasting my time replying to you, but you post so much crap it just can't stay in here without it being refuted. From now on you may want to think about what you are posting before you do.
Quote from: mikemac on November 10, 2019, 12:29:36 AM
Quote from: gsas on November 09, 2019, 03:44:42 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 08, 2019, 09:00:01 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 08, 2019, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: mikemac on November 06, 2019, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: gsas on November 04, 2019, 01:54:20 AM
Protestants play a vital role of bringing people to Christ when the Catholic church rejects them. It is somewhat unfortunate that protestant entitle themselves to all kinds of privilegrs, such as direct access unconditionally to the Lord Jesus Christ, but these little conceited sins are nothing compared to the huge service they do for the Lord Jesus Christ by bringing people to Him where Catholics can't.
Who does the Catholic Church reject, pray tell?
The Catholic Church rejects at minimum the following people. (I know this because they went to the Church by my personal recommendation, seeking the true apostolic hand of Christ, only to be turned away.)
1. People of multiple marriages. Either series of divorces or polygamous households. Rejected, even though this is the exact environment where the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
Nonsense. The person with a series of divorces would have to live in chastity. Obviously the polygamist would have to give up their polygamous lifestyle. The Catholic Church would not reject either. The apostles did not live a series of divorces or a polygamous lifestyle when the Catholic Church started 2000 years ago.
2. Proud highly educated people in high academic positions, some in government offices, who actively have been hating the Lord Jesus Christ, but I convinced them to give Him a chance.
These people clearly did not get turned away by the Catholic Church if they swallowed their pride and were sincere about amending their ways. It sounds like there is not a lot of truth in this on their part.
3. Prosecuted Muslims who now understand the Mercy and Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in contrast to cons like Allah and other lies, trembling in fear of their own state / religious police, these people are would-be Catholics and get rejection instead of encouragement at the Church steps where they risk their lives if they are seen / caught. (Do you know how much work it is to get them even this far?)
I simply do not believe this. What country? What city/area? What Catholic parish? Who was the priest that was suppose to have rejected these former Muslims?
My reply is in red.
So, are you saying that the Church forces people to divorce if they have a past life of multiple marriage? I know that they have to go to tribunals and lie to renounce their earlier marriages. This is what turns them away. Also nobody I know understand how this is dogmatic.
The added problem if you are in a Muslim country is, that when you renounce your marriage then your children become legally orphans, which brings them up on the government's radar, very dangerous.
Our Church has to do better, and used to do better. But now our Church just turns people away like this and on many other ways. Our Church turned away even Elisabeth Kindleman who brought the Flame of Love of the Immaculate Heart of Mary!
Are you even Catholic?
If you were then you would know that the Church does not force people to divorce; it doesn't even recognize divorce.
You didn't answer my questions. What country? What city/area? What Catholic parish? Who was the priest that was suppose to have rejected these former Muslims?
What are you talking about, the Church approved Elizabeth Kindelmann's messages. Her local ordinary approved them; that's all it takes for them to be worthy of belief. Besides her local bishop, Cardinal Péter Erdö the primate of Hungary approved them. She also drew the support of Cardinal Archbishop Bernardino Echeverría Ruiz of Guayaquil. Other bishops that supported her messages included prelates from Acapulco, Celaya, Tuxila, Hermosillo, Mexico City, and Durango. After requesting approval of the global Church for the organization based on Flame of Love, Cardinal Ruiz was sent a letter from the Vatican's J. Francis Stafford, president of the Pontifical Council for the laity, encouraging him "to take every measure for the association to give abundant fruits among its members" and inviting him "to continue with the tender task of spiritual accompaniment."
I feel like I'm wasting my time replying to you, but you post so much crap it just can't stay in here without it being refuted. From now on you may want to think about what you are posting before you do.
So much for trying to use my brain. Hmmm.
A good argument for confession is Scripture declares it.
The priesthood is there to bring Christ closer to us all, not to act as a clerical screen hiding Christ away from us. If it ever seems that way either the priests are doing an extremely bad job, or the devil is playing tricks on people's minds.
How is a priest baptising your baby something that makes Christ distant? How is a priest making God's mercy physically manifest to you by saying "I absolve you of all your sins" something that makes Christ distant? How is a priest anointing you with oil when you are seriously sick something that makes Christ distant? How is a priest feeding you Christ Himself daily in the Eucharist something that makes Christ distant?
In each and every one of the sacraments, Christ really, physically, and spiritually approaches us. That's precisely what a "sacrament" is. It's something that makes Christ's invisible grace, physically present to us—because we are bodily creatures. Nowhere on earth is Christ more fully and tangibly present to us than in the sacraments, since it is Christ Himself who administers the sacraments—the priest is His instrument.
Christ did not institute the priesthood to glorify men. He did it to glorify Himself and the Holy Spirit. If some priests wear their priesthood as a badge of their own personal honour, they're going to be punished by Christ for it. Why did Christ institute the priesthood?—Because the Church needs priests. Why does the Church need priests?—Because the Church, like any human community, needs to be organised, which means appointing leaders; and why shouldn't Christ specially anoint the leaders in His own Church? Soldiers receive appointments and promotions, and get to wear uniforms and badges. Athletes get picked for positions on a team, and get to wear uniforms and badges. Public servants and politicians receive appointments to office, and they get their titles. So why shouldn't Christ pick out certain men, consecrate, and anoint them to act as His representatives? Some might say that the Church is a spiritual institution, so it doesn't need offices or appointments. This is a kind of half-truth, a distortion. Yes the Church is a spiritual institution, but it has a certain physical component and presence in the world, so it needs to be organised like any body that's in the world is organised. And Protestants know this by experience themselves. They have their "pastors", because they know some men are more equipped to lead Christian communities than others. That's what we have in the Catholic Church, except we get Christ Himself to come down to us in the Sacrament of Holy Orders to anoint the pastor Himself . . .
I know a marvellous example to tell Protestants about the need for confession. Søren Kierkegaard is the greatest writer in Danish history, and one of the greatest writers of the 19th century. He and his family were Lutherans. On his deathbed, Kierkegaard's father revealed to him that when he was a young man working in the fields, he had cursed God—and had felt cut off from God ever since. His father telling him this deeply affected Kierkegaard himself. His father had spent the better part of his life alienated from God, because of one sin he committed in his youth. Why? because his father was a Lutheran, and therefore he had no access to confession. If Kierkegaard's father was a Catholic, he would have recognised that he had committed a mortal sin, gone to confession, confessed his sin, received absolution from the priest, done his penance, and could have spent the rest of his life in union with God. But because he had no access to confession, Kierkegaard's father could never be certain of God's forgiveness. He could ask God for forgiveness, but he could never know with certainty if he was forgiven. If he was the kind of soul given to scruples and despair, he'd never be certain whether his repentance was sincere or not. That's precisely why we have confession—we know that when we hear the priest say, "I absolve you of all your sins," that this is God speaking to us, and that we are indeed forgiven. That's what the sacraments do for us. They make God's grace visible. They give us certainty. They increase our faith and hope in salvation, and strengthen our union with God. Sure we can (and should) ask God's forgiveness even outside confession, and make an act of contrition for our sins. But confession makes us sure of God's mercy, and allows us to bury our sins for good without any further anxiety.
Priests and sacraments in no way prevent us from, or excuse us from, having a direct relationship with Christ. They're just there to make Christ's presence visible to us whenever we need it. Priests and sacraments are Christ's way of walking and acting among us in every place and period of history. They're channels of His grace which make it easier for us to access Him.
Tell the man waiting to be executed on death-row whether having a priest hear your confession and saying "I absolve you of all your sins", is not better than just sitting there by yourself wrestling with your conscience.
Quote from: John Lamb on November 16, 2019, 08:12:30 AM
In each and every one of the sacraments, Christ really, physically, and spiritually approaches us. That's precisely what a "sacrament" is. It's something that makes Christ's invisible grace, physically present to us—because we are bodily creatures. Nowhere on earth is Christ more fully and tangibly present to us than in the sacraments, since it is Christ Himself who administers the sacraments—the priest is His instrument.
Christ (Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity) is really (and not just mystically) present in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Christ is present, but not in the same way, in the other Sacraments. He is present in His grace and by acting in the priest (minister) instrumentally, really but mystically. Physical things in the Sacraments are the means He uses to give grace, but only in the Eucharist is Christ Himself hidden under them (their appearances).
I'm not sure what you mean by calling Christ's grace present bodily/physically. I wouldn't want to say every spiritual good is also present physically. Or if you do, it at least needs explanation - e.g. that they affect the body only is as much as a man's body and soul are distinct but united during life. Otherwise it seems body and soul could be understood as a kind of a mishmash.
You are more expert (and better with words) here than I am, but the above is my imperfect understanding.
Yes Non Nobis, I know my words were ambiguous there. When I say that Christ comes to us physically in the Sacraments, I don't mean that Christ Himself is physically present in each of the Sacraments, but that He comes to us in a physical way through them, since each Sacrament has a physical component (like water for baptism). Point being that He uses physical things in the world to communicate with us through the Sacraments.