Limbo

[Kaesekopf]

It is illogical because a miscarried baby doesn't have the wedding gown, the laver of baptism. It is impossible to enter into Heaven without this, so that's the answer.

St. Thomas Aquinas said that for infants, limbo is a state of eternal bliss.

But then, what of baptism of desire? 

[Bonaventure]

That's different. The desire for baptism remits original sin.

[CoolCat]

Now it gets good.

[Kaesekopf]

But, if that opportunity is afforded to an adult or adolescent, why wouldn't the same be offered to a child? 

[Bonaventure]

A child in the womb cannot make an act of faith, or charity, nor can one desire baptism.


That's the difference.

[Penelope]

What to you say to otherwise devout Catholics who believe that aborted and miscarried babies go straight to Heaven (especially to women who have experienced miscarriage and comfort themselves with the idea that their babies are in Heaven)? I don't want to crush people's Faith, nor their emotions, but it really is illogical to oppose abortion but also to believe that aborted babies go to Heaven. Has anyone had success in a gentle approach that allows people to understand children's limbo?

Many of us pro-life activists do not delve that far in, theologically speaking. We make progress by trying to change the mothers' and her boyfriend's mind. It would be very difficult to explain to them what is Limbo.
In fact, it may even defeat the purpose.

No, I definitely know that. I was quite active in the pro-life movement for a solid few years. I'm talking about quasi-trads and neo-Caths who have all the good intentions in the world and are fairly solid in their knowledge of the faith (comparatively speaking), but who have somehow formed the notion that aborted and miscarried babies go to Heaven.

[LouisIX]

Limbus Patrem would be closed, but there may exist a third kind of limbo.  Dante refers to a place where virtuous pagans go (ones who did not reject Christ).  He places people like Plato and Aristotle here.  The question of whether such a place could still be open (or whether it exists at all) is open for debate, but I think it's at least quite possible.

[Mithrandylan]

What to you say to otherwise devout Catholics who believe that aborted and miscarried babies go straight to Heaven (especially to women who have experienced miscarriage and comfort themselves with the idea that their babies are in Heaven)? I don't want to crush people's Faith, nor their emotions, but it really is illogical to oppose abortion but also to believe that aborted babies go to Heaven. Has anyone had success in a gentle approach that allows people to understand children's limbo?

Many of us pro-life activists do not delve that far in, theologically speaking. We make progress by trying to change the mothers' and her boyfriend's mind. It would be very difficult to explain to them what is Limbo.
In fact, it may even defeat the purpose.

No, I definitely know that. I was quite active in the pro-life movement for a solid few years. I'm talking about quasi-trads and neo-Caths who have all the good intentions in the world and are fairly solid in their knowledge of the faith (comparatively speaking), but who have somehow formed the notion that aborted and miscarried babies go to Heaven.

Well, I would honestly do everything I can to avoid that conversation.

It's not a conversation that can be had (usually) because it's predicated on emotions.  They don't feel it's right, etc. etc.

[Bonaventure]

What to you say to otherwise devout Catholics who believe that aborted and miscarried babies go straight to Heaven (especially to women who have experienced miscarriage and comfort themselves with the idea that their babies are in Heaven)? I don't want to crush people's Faith, nor their emotions, but it really is illogical to oppose abortion but also to believe that aborted babies go to Heaven. Has anyone had success in a gentle approach that allows people to understand children's limbo?

Many of us pro-life activists do not delve that far in, theologically speaking. We make progress by trying to change the mothers' and her boyfriend's mind. It would be very difficult to explain to them what is Limbo.
In fact, it may even defeat the purpose.

No, I definitely know that. I was quite active in the pro-life movement for a solid few years. I'm talking about quasi-trads and neo-Caths who have all the good intentions in the world and are fairly solid in their knowledge of the faith (comparatively speaking), but who have somehow formed the notion that aborted and miscarried babies go to Heaven.

Well, I would honestly do everything I can to avoid that conversation.

It's not a conversation that can be had (usually) because it's predicated on emotions.  They don't feel it's right, etc. etc.

It is a purely emotional argument.

[Penelope]

Yeah, I agree, but can you see how it's easy for people in the pro-life movement or women who have had miscarriages to believe that? I want to have this conversation with these people, but it's just impossible without bringing up trauma. I don't know if there's a gentle way to say, "Actually, your dead baby is never going to be in Heaven. Sorry."

[Mithrandylan]

Well P, some people believe that infants who die before baptism can obtain Heaven by the faith of their parents.  I believe, though I'm not sure, that this is (when correctly applied) an orthodox and permitted belief.  In principle (I hope to be corrected if I am wrong on this) it isn't any different from a water baptism of an infant with godparents.  The godparents are the proxy.  A baby is, as mentioned before, incapable of making an act of faith.  How can one without faith be baptized?  godparents.  Ditto miscarried babies.  However, it isn't reasonable that a woman who had an abortion's child would go to heaven this way, since it's entirely against reason to think that a woman who would willfully murder (remember, willful murder is one of the five sins that cry to Heaven for vengeance) has faith.

Also, a miscarried baby can receive an actual water baptism.

Also, if anyone knows I'm wrong, please correct me.  This is a serious issue and we should be careful with it.

[LouisIX]

Tell them that the theologians teach that limbo is a place of complete natural happiness.  It's probably better than our best conceptions of heaven. 


If you can imagine the most comfortable and happy you could be in this life, the very best moment you've experienced, that's what these little ones experience for eternity.

[LouisIX]

But, as Mith said, you won't find very many who will say that this is a de fide teaching of the Church.  It's possible, I think, to be totally traditional and Catholic and believe that all unbaptized babies go to heaven.  Holding this position is not without difficulty as it has been believed by most Catholics and theologians throughout history, but it's not impossible.

[Bonaventure]

It's possible, I think, to be totally traditional and Catholic and believe that all unbaptized babies go to heaven.  Holding this position is not without difficulty as it has been believed by most Catholics and theologians throughout history, but it's not impossible.

I don't see how that is possible, because it denies the necessity of baptism, and essentially sweeps what Aquinas, Augustine, et al. said.

[Mithrandylan]

It's possible, I think, to be totally traditional and Catholic and believe that all unbaptized babies go to heaven.  Holding this position is not without difficulty as it has been believed by most Catholics and theologians throughout history, but it's not impossible.

I don't see how that is possible, because it denies the necessity of baptism, and essentially sweeps what Aquinas, Augustine, et al. said.

If an unbaptized baby went to heaven, it would be due to his parents faith and prayers.  Now, if we can somehow accept that, the problem of saying ALL unbaptized babies go to Heaven is that it relies on ALL unbaptized babies parents having the faith and prayers to do so. 

Baptism without faith isn't really worth anything is it?  Honest question.  A baby, baptized or not, cannot have faith.