Limbo

Started by Penelope, January 09, 2013, 09:49:32 PM

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Vetus Ordo

Quote from: MilesChristi on January 10, 2013, 10:33:13 AM
What about Dante's Limbo? Was that ever a serious theological position?

Actually, Dante is responsible for Purgatory becoming mainstream more than anything else. It's quite the historical curiosity.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Bonaventure

Limbo is a part of Hell where the unbaptized who have not committed actual sin go. They suffer no pain of sense.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

CoolCat

Quote from: Bonaventure on January 18, 2013, 07:04:35 PM
Limbo is a part of Hell where the unbaptized who have not committed actual sin go. They suffer no pain of sense.
This brings me to the topic of abortion. I will pose an ugly question. Based on what you wrote:

What is worse: 40,000 babies aborted or 40,000 Catholics who died without being in the state of grace (all being in the same "level" of sin)?






Bonaventure

Quote from: CoolCat on January 23, 2013, 02:30:48 PM
Quote from: Bonaventure on January 18, 2013, 07:04:35 PM
Limbo is a part of Hell where the unbaptized who have not committed actual sin go. They suffer no pain of sense.
This brings me to the topic of abortion. I will pose an ugly question. Based on what you wrote:

What is worse: 40,000 babies aborted or 40,000 Catholics who died without being in the state of grace (all being in the same "level" of sin)?

The latter.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

CoolCat

Quote from: Bonaventure on January 23, 2013, 02:59:28 PM
Quote from: CoolCat on January 23, 2013, 02:30:48 PM
Quote from: Bonaventure on January 18, 2013, 07:04:35 PM
Limbo is a part of Hell where the unbaptized who have not committed actual sin go. They suffer no pain of sense.
This brings me to the topic of abortion. I will pose an ugly question. Based on what you wrote:

What is worse: 40,000 babies aborted or 40,000 Catholics who died without being in the state of grace (all being in the same "level" of sin)?

The latter.
Good answer.

Bonaventure

A Catholic in Hell will suffer a terrible torment in Hell, something way worse than the limited pains unbaptized babies experience.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

CoolCat

Quote from: Bonaventure on January 23, 2013, 03:05:45 PM
A Catholic in Hell will suffer a terrible torment in Hell, something way worse than the limited pains unbaptized babies experience.
Definately. Iis the irreversible detachment from God that makes the Catholic suffer in Hell. There was never an attachment with the unbaptized children.

Bonaventure

Quote from: CoolCat on January 23, 2013, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Bonaventure on January 23, 2013, 03:05:45 PM
A Catholic in Hell will suffer a terrible torment in Hell, something way worse than the limited pains unbaptized babies experience.
Definately. Iis the irreversible detachment from God that makes the Catholic suffer in Hell. There was never an attachment with the unbaptized children.

Well, since the unbaptized child did not commit actual sin, he cannot experience pain of sense.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

CoolCat

Quote from: Bonaventure on January 23, 2013, 03:13:58 PM
Quote from: CoolCat on January 23, 2013, 03:10:37 PM
Quote from: Bonaventure on January 23, 2013, 03:05:45 PM
A Catholic in Hell will suffer a terrible torment in Hell, something way worse than the limited pains unbaptized babies experience.
Definately. Iis the irreversible detachment from God that makes the Catholic suffer in Hell. There was never an attachment with the unbaptized children.

Well, since the unbaptized child did not commit actual sin, he cannot experience pain of sense.
Granted. Nor was he or she ever a child of God. In an analogous way, it's like the down syndrome children.
Their "happiness" is limited to their capacity of comprehension.

Mithrandylan

Quote from: Bonaventure on January 23, 2013, 03:05:45 PM
A Catholic in Hell will suffer a terrible torment in Hell, something way worse than the limited pains unbaptized babies experience.

In traditional interpretations, infants don't suffer at all, do they?  They will never experience bliss, but this limbo is usually said to be a preserved state of natural happiness, yes?
Ps 135

Quia in humilitáte nostra memor fuit nostri: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Et redémit nos ab inimícis nostris: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Qui dat escam omni carni: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Confitémini Deo cæli: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Confitémini Dómino dominórum: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.

For he was mindful of us in our affliction: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
And he redeemed us from our enemies: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Who giveth food to all flesh: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Give glory to the God of heaven: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Give glory to the Lord of lords: * for his mercy endureth for ever.

-I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

Bonaventure

Quote from: Mithrandylan on January 23, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Quote from: Bonaventure on January 23, 2013, 03:05:45 PM
A Catholic in Hell will suffer a terrible torment in Hell, something way worse than the limited pains unbaptized babies experience.

In traditional interpretations, infants don't suffer at all, do they?  They will never experience bliss, but this limbo is usually said to be a preserved state of natural happiness, yes?

Yep.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

Penelope

What to you say to otherwise devout Catholics who believe that aborted and miscarried babies go straight to Heaven (especially to women who have experienced miscarriage and comfort themselves with the idea that their babies are in Heaven)? I don't want to crush people's Faith, nor their emotions, but it really is illogical to oppose abortion but also to believe that aborted babies go to Heaven. Has anyone had success in a gentle approach that allows people to understand children's limbo?

Kaesekopf

With a loose enough application of baptism of desire, there is no reason to justify a children's limbo.

If some ignorant savage can be saved after living X many of years, why can't a defenseless/helpless child?
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

CoolCat

Quote from: Penelope on January 23, 2013, 06:50:37 PM
What to you say to otherwise devout Catholics who believe that aborted and miscarried babies go straight to Heaven (especially to women who have experienced miscarriage and comfort themselves with the idea that their babies are in Heaven)? I don't want to crush people's Faith, nor their emotions, but it really is illogical to oppose abortion but also to believe that aborted babies go to Heaven. Has anyone had success in a gentle approach that allows people to understand children's limbo?
Many of us pro-life activists do not delve that far in, theologically speaking. We make progress by trying to change the mothers' and her boyfriend's mind. It would be very difficult to explain to them what is Limbo.
In fact, it may even defeat the purpose.

Bonaventure

It is illogical because a miscarried baby doesn't have the wedding gown, the laver of baptism. It is impossible to enter into Heaven without this, so that's the answer.

St. Thomas Aquinas said that for infants, limbo is a state of eternal bliss.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."