Author Topic: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church  (Read 1110 times)

Offline andy

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • Thanked: 208 times
proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« on: September 07, 2021, 07:56:27 PM »
Where in the 1 hour tape does he get into the problem of authority?

In "Crisis Series #29 w/ Don Tranquillo: Collegiality - More Dangerous Than You Knew" on YT " SSPX News - English ", it takes first 20 minutes to put some context and legwork to then quickly get into the main point. It is that the power of governing comes from the episcopal ordination itself, which is a departure from the Tradition. In "Crisis Series #34 w/ Don Tranquillo: Is Sedevacantism the Answer to the Crisis?" it is shown that Sedevacantism and the Church of New Advent both in fact follow the same flawed logic regarding understanding the source of the jurisdiction.

I do not have neither talent nor time to summarize it in few sentences, especially that there are a lot of interesting quotes and all is explained in a specific order.
 
The following users thanked this post: Michael Wilson

Offline King Wenceslas

  • What we do in life echoes in eternity.
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2385
  • Thanked: 1386 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2021, 12:29:59 PM »
Source of authority only works when men of faith are in the leadership of the Church.

When men of a worldly faith occupy the positions of power in the Church the old adage still holds of:

"One does not put oneself into the mouth of the wolf."
 
The following users thanked this post: MaximGun

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 9214
  • Thanked: 8359 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2021, 06:38:07 PM »
Andy,
I have only listened to 28" of this tape and D. Tranquilo is already in a hole that he cannot dig himself out of; namely the doctrine that: "the Bishops receive their power of jurisdiction directly from the Pope, is a teaching of the Church".
Now I agree with this doctrine; but D. Tranquilo cannot justify his defense of this position because according to the SSPX and those who support their theological posture, the Pope is only infallible when he speaks solemnly ex-Cathedra; apart from this, he can be not only mistaken, but also even teach error or heresy. Now the doctrine that the bishops receive their power of jurisdiction directly from the Pope, was a disputed question in the Church until 1943, when Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical Mistici Corporis decided the question. The problem with this is that an Enclyclical is not a solemn "Ex-Cathedra" definition, so that Pius XII could be mistaken or even have fallen into heresy (per the SSPX's theological stance). Therefore Vatican II and the post Conciliar magisterium could be correct when they "corrected" Pius XII and taught that the bishop receives his jurisdiction when he receives the power of orders.
So who is right?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 06:54:37 PM by Michael Wilson »
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
The following users thanked this post: lauermar

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 9214
  • Thanked: 8359 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2021, 01:46:24 PM »
Andy,
I listened to the whole tape; thank you for posting it. Don Tranquilo makes some very good arguments:
1. Lumen Gentium taught that the power of jurrisdiction as well as orders is conferred upon ordination, and not orders alone; changing the teaching of Pius XII in M.C. And elsewhere.
2. It contradicted Vatican I, when it stated that there are two supreme powers in the Church; the Pope and the college of bishops united to the Pope. (With the Pope, under the Pope, but not from the Pope).
3. Therefore wherever there is a valid bishop there is "the Church".
4. Therefore the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ are not one an the same thing (L.G.); but the Church of Christ 'subsits-in" the Catholic Church.
5. "Dominus Jesus": other "churches" are united by the closest bonds to the Catholic Church and the "spirit of Christ is present and operative in these churches".
6. The Catholic Church therefore is 'lacking' the universality of the college of bishops, since there are many bishops that are not members of the Church.
7. Cardinal Ratzinger then explains that the "imperative" of Ecumenism doesn't flow from the call of Charity; but from the necessity of the Church to obtain its "historic universality".
8. Formerly it was the Papacy that provided the linchpin of unity in the Church, but now with the teaching of L.G. Forward the Papacy is diminshed/redefined/ destroyed, and there is room for any numbers of Churches; that is what has been done with Collegiality. The necessity of confessing the true faith in order to be a member of the Church is no longer necessary.
Very interesting.
I will have to listen to D. Tranquilo in his #34 where he relates this problem to sedism.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
The following users thanked this post: Tennessean

Offline AlNg

  • Hellebardier
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Thanked: 16 times
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2021, 02:43:16 PM »

8. Formerly it was the Papacy that provided the linchpin of unity in the Church, but now with the teaching of L.G. Forward the Papacy is diminshed/redefined/ destroyed, ...
Does this invalidate the teaching of Vatican I ?
 

Offline ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 448
  • Thanked: 761 times
  • LET'S GO BRANDON!
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2021, 03:01:33 PM »
8. Formerly it was the Papacy that provided the linchpin of unity in the Church, but now with the teaching of L.G. Forward the Papacy is diminshed/redefined/ destroyed, ...
Does this invalidate the teaching of Vatican I ?

Obviously not.

Also, some of these points come from Dominus Iesus, not Lumen Gentium.  The language in Dominus Iesus that talks about "true particular Churches", "present and operative", etc., does not describe whether there is salvation in those Churches.  Many people read Dominus Iesus as expressing an indifferentism toward schismatics, but the document never suggests that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 9214
  • Thanked: 8359 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2021, 05:51:47 PM »

8. Formerly it was the Papacy that provided the linchpin of unity in the Church, but now with the teaching of L.G. Forward the Papacy is diminshed/redefined/ destroyed, ...
Does this invalidate the teaching of Vatican I ?
This is where the "problem of authority" comes in. Are the Popes of Vatican II forward true Popes? If so, then they are protected by the Holy Ghost from teaching error or harmful doctrine to the Church; the same for the Universal Magisterium of the Church; i.e. The Bishops in union with the Pope in their ordinary or extra-ordinary teaching. The first Vatican Council teaches that the Pope is the center of unity and supreme teacher and ruler of the Church; Vatican II teaches that there are two supreme powers in the Church. The two cannot be reconciled, something has to give; either the Church can be mistaken in her universal magisterium or the Pope of the either the first or the second Vatican Council are not true Popes, and therefore said Council is not preserved from teaching error. Since Vatican I is in conformity with previous Church and Papal teaching, that only leaves the Second Vatican Council open for questioning.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
The following users thanked this post: AlNg

Offline andy

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • Thanked: 208 times
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2021, 07:42:02 PM »
Therefore Vatican II and the post Conciliar magisterium could be correct when they "corrected" Pius XII and taught that the bishop receives his jurisdiction when he receives the power of orders.
So who is right?
I am writing as a theology consumer more then anybody else. And when I am left with the question "who is right", given that V2 is merely a "pastoral" council (whatever it could mean) and so many errors and chaos it introduced, I definitely side with PXII. Also Don Tranquilo says there are "We have dozens of documents about that" and "This teaching is not invented though by Pius
XII, obviously.". But besides that we have many bishops without a jurisdiction, those named to no diocese, titular, auxiliary, excommunicated, valid bishops of Eastern Orthodox Church. Also, I learned about rare cases of those who received a jurisdiction to rule a diocese without an episcopal ordination. So those powers definitely are decoupled.

Quote
Now the doctrine that the bishops receive their power of jurisdiction directly from the Pope, was a disputed question in the Church until 1943
It would be interesting to see some of those arguments here and how the stack up against cases of bishops without a diocese. Please tell us.


Quote
D. Tranquilo is already in a hole that he cannot dig himself out of
I do not see that hole here. He calmly quotes P12 and acutely describes the context. It seems to be a most probable solution, perhaps not a dogmatic but only making sense here. Fr. Hesse in one of his tapes mentioned that the (pre V2) episcopal ordination form is very very vague, as it has not been well explained yet. There are many things we do not know for 100%, but do what the Church was doing since the beginning.
 

Offline andy

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • Thanked: 208 times
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2021, 07:47:51 PM »
Andy,
I listened to the whole tape; thank you for posting it. Don Tranquilo makes some very good arguments:
1. Lumen Gentium taught that the power of jurrisdiction as well as orders is conferred upon ordination, and not orders alone; changing the teaching of Pius XII in M.C. And elsewhere.
2. It contradicted Vatican I, when it stated that there are two supreme powers in the Church; the Pope and the college of bishops united to the Pope. (With the Pope, under the Pope, but not from the Pope).
3. Therefore wherever there is a valid bishop there is "the Church".
4. Therefore the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ are not one an the same thing (L.G.); but the Church of Christ 'subsits-in" the Catholic Church.
5. "Dominus Jesus": other "churches" are united by the closest bonds to the Catholic Church and the "spirit of Christ is present and operative in these churches".
6. The Catholic Church therefore is 'lacking' the universality of the college of bishops, since there are many bishops that are not members of the Church.
7. Cardinal Ratzinger then explains that the "imperative" of Ecumenism doesn't flow from the call of Charity; but from the necessity of the Church to obtain its "historic universality".
8. Formerly it was the Papacy that provided the linchpin of unity in the Church, but now with the teaching of L.G. Forward the Papacy is diminshed/redefined/ destroyed, and there is room for any numbers of Churches; that is what has been done with Collegiality. The necessity of confessing the true faith in order to be a member of the Church is no longer necessary.
Very interesting.
I will have to listen to D. Tranquilo in his #34 where he relates this problem to sedism.

As you can see, the error cascades into a lot of absurdities very quickly. I kind of missed 7th - have to read it again https://secureservercdn.net/198.71.233.37/n10.2a5.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Episode29-Transcript.pdf


The sedism tape is good too, Don Tranquilo presents a paradox where The Church of New Advent and Sedevacantists essentially make the same error and falsify understanding of the Pope's office.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 9214
  • Thanked: 8359 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2021, 07:22:06 PM »
Andy,
Thanks for the link to the transcript; I rather read a transcript than listen to a tape. It also saves me a lot of work in note taking.
Quote
I do not see that hole here. He calmly quotes P12 and acutely describes the context. It seems to be a most probable solution, perhaps not a dogmatic but only making sense here. Fr. Hesse in one of his tapes mentioned that the (pre V2) episcopal ordination form is very very vague, as it has not been well explained yet. There are many things we do not know for 100%, but do what the Church was doing since the beginning.
Andy,
D. Tranquilo affirms that the teaching that the bishops receive their power of jurisdiction directly from the Pope is a "doctrine of the Church" and "a question of faith"; "already defined by the Pope"; "a heresy": 
Quote
But about Collegiality there was no way to understand, no way to come to some agreement or some explanation even. It was impossible, because you can see and we will
see that they touch precisely the doctrines of the Church already defined by the Pope. This is very important because it is a question of Faith... Collegiality itself is an error, you could say, or some heresy, we will see, against the doctrine of the Church.
He goes on to say that it is a teaching of the "Church for centuries":
Quote
it is what the Church teaches, has taught for centuries. We have dozens of documents about that. I will quote some of them, because its important. For example, the last, the most important on maybe, is Mystici Corporis the
encyclical from Pius XII so in 1943,
But he cannot quote from any Pope before Pius XII because this was not settled until Pius XII.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 9214
  • Thanked: 8359 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2021, 09:37:10 PM »
On when and how the power of jurisdiction is given to bishops, from: Sacrae Theologiae Summa, vol. I-B, pg. 144:
Quote
374. On the mediate or immediate origin from God of the power of jurisdiction of bishops. This question was raised in the Council of Trent and Vatican I, but was not decided. Several authors with Victoria and Vazquez held that the jurisdiction is given "immediately" by God to the individual bishops; but generally Catholic authors with St. Thomas, St. Bonaventure, St. Robert Bellarmine and Suarez hold that jurisdiction is given to the Bishops immediately not by God but 'mediated' through the Roman Pontiff. Pius XII teaches this opinion positively in the Encyclical, 'Mistici Corporis', when he says: "But the Bishops so far as their own diocese is concerned...are not completely independent but are subject to the proper authority of the Roman Pontiff, although they enjoy ordinary power of jurisdiction received directly from the Sovereign Pontiff himself." We think that this opinion is to be preferred.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
The following users thanked this post: Christe Eleison

Offline andy

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • Thanked: 208 times
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2021, 12:24:37 AM »
But he cannot quote from any Pope before Pius XII because this was not settled until Pius XII.

I am not sure what your point is, that Don Tranquilo is not consistent?

For me, "the Bishops receive their power of jurisdiction directly from the Pope, is a teaching of the Church" seems to be a sententia certa.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 9214
  • Thanked: 8359 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2021, 05:16:44 PM »
But he cannot quote from any Pope before Pius XII because this was not settled until Pius XII.

I am not sure what your point is, that Don Tranquilo is not consistent?

For me, "the Bishops receive their power of jurisdiction directly from the Pope, is a teaching of the Church" seems to be a sententia certa.
My point is that D. Tranquilo stated clearly that this is a dogma of the Church; and has been taught for centuries; when this isn't the case at all. "Sentencia Serta"? Maybe, maybe not; according to the quote of the S.T.S. "This opinion is to be preferred" and according to Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma pg. 290 states that it is "Sent. Probabilior"; and on pg. 291; "The question remains without final decision".
In other words D. Tranquilo over-stated the certainty of this opinion, which weakens the strength of his argument.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline andy

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 355
  • Thanked: 208 times
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2021, 12:21:03 AM »
My point is that D. Tranquilo stated clearly that this is a dogma of the Church

That was for other points discussed, at least I could not find anywhere in the text where he claimed "the Bishops receive their power of jurisdiction directly from the Pope, is a teaching of the Church" is dogmatic.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 9214
  • Thanked: 8359 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: proper understanding of source of authority in the Church
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2021, 08:31:22 AM »
D.T.:
Quote
It was impossible, because you can see and we will see that they touch precisely the doctrines of the Church already defined by the Pope. This is very important because it is a question of Faith...But Collegiality itself is an error, you could say, or some heresy, we will see, against the doctrine of the Church... but this power is not given by episcopal ordination;
it is given by the pope. Through an act of will, he gives to them the power of governing governing a diocese usually and teaching.....The only men who receive jurisdiction directly from God, from Our Lord actually who has the fullness of all these powers obviously, is the pope himself. Then he gives jurisdiction to others. But he is the only one receiving it directly from Our Lord. We will see that about Sedevecantism; it is very important. This has been defined. We have seen, it is important to
remind that. It is not an opinion, it is not our opinion as Traditional Catholics; it is what the Church teaches, has taught for centuries. We have dozens of documents about that. I will quote some of them, because its important. For example, the last, the most important on maybe, is Mystici Corporis the Encyclical from Pius XII so in 1943 quite recently, he told that about bishops in exercising this office they are not altogether independent; but they are subordinated to the lawful authority of the Roman Pontiff although enjoying the ordinary power of jurisdiction which they receive directly from the same Supreme Pontiff.
This is the whole main argument of D.T. That is the basis for his condemnation of L.G.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers