My liberal church finally went over the edge.

Started by 2Towers, September 08, 2019, 06:18:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

dellery

Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Aeternitus on September 30, 2019, 06:08:34 AM
Awkward is not questioning the future of the Church.  She questioned a future triumph based on demographics.

Thank you, Aeternitus.

The future of the Church surely depends on CONVERSIONS.  The demographic argument comes from the priests of the various Trad groups.  Quite why they have adopted it is beyond me but it seems to universally held to be true across all Trad factions from what I can tell. 

A lot is said about 'state of life' and its various obligations.  But it has also been acknowledged that we are in an unprecedented, emergency situation. How far such obligations apply during times of crisis is never explained. 

And neither is it explained how far a state of life obligation applies if carrying that obligation out involves causing disturbance to oneself and others.

I'veen meaning to ask you about something you said in a previous post.

Quote
what I now know is my main focus should be on protecting and increasing the reverence, devotion, silence and attention the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves from me.

I'd love to know if you have any ideas about how to achieve this?  My guess is that nothing can be done at the parish level and that Tradition needs a new liturgical movement aimed at restoring the silence, reverence, attention and awe of the TLM.

We need priests, or even just one priest, like St Ambrose, St John Chrysostom, St Leonard.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

dellery

It's hard to take an opinion here since both sides are convincing, but my opinion of awkwardcustomer has gone up considerably.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

mikemac

Quote from: bigbadtrad on September 30, 2019, 08:09:34 AM
Quote from: Aeternitus on September 30, 2019, 06:08:34 AM
Awkward is not questioning the future of the Church.  She questioned a future triumph based on demographics.  There is a huge difference and to infer otherwise is a big misinterpretation – on your part.

Demography is certainly against us in general, but look at the context and I believe myself correct. I and another poster cited beautiful stories about our children and Mike was inspired by them.

Here's what mikemac said:
"Thanks for sharing folks.  I love reading accounts like these.  It makes you feel like there is a bright future for the Church.  You know, because they are the future of the Church."

Awkward's reply was:
"How very Modern of you, mikemac, sacrificing the peace and reverence of the Mass today for a future demographic triumph that will never happen."

Who says that except a bitter, angry person who doesn't see hope through children? I'm not wrong. It's like saying "I'm so happy" and someone replies "Oh shut up, you have no reason to be happy!"

Sorry the woman is crazy. Who thinks of such a reply? Only a crazy person.

Exactly
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source

The Harlequin King

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 29, 2019, 12:36:42 PM
A new Trad liturgical movement is needed, aimed at restoring the silence, reverence and attention of the TLM. 

That already exists. See the New Liturgical Movement blog. My work has been featured on it multiple times. http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: dellery on September 30, 2019, 10:21:06 AM
It's hard to take an opinion here since both sides are convincing, but my opinion of awkwardcustomer has gone up considerably.

Goodness me, Dellery.

I wasn't sure what you meant by the flag waving emoji you posted earlier.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: The Harlequin King on September 30, 2019, 12:08:54 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 29, 2019, 12:36:42 PM
A new Trad liturgical movement is needed, aimed at restoring the silence, reverence and attention of the TLM. 

That already exists. See the New Liturgical Movement blog. My work has been featured on it multiple times. http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/

I knew there was an actual organisation called the 'New Liturgical Movement', but do they propose restricting Mass attendance to those who have reached the age of reason, a measure which I believe would restore the silence, reverence and attention of the Mass in an instant?

'Recsacralising the liturgy' was the term used back when I was taking an interest in these things.  Then I realised that no matter how magnificent and holy the liturgy was, or how much effort had gone into preparing for it, the toddler screaming in the next pew always managed to sound louder, thereby dominating the proceedings.

Was it not St Augustine who was so moved by the chants he heard coming from a church he was passing that he went inside.  The evangelising power of the beautiful Catholic liturgy is being squandered, I think. 

And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

coffeeandcigarette

Quote from: orate on September 29, 2019, 06:07:47 AM
Aeternitus  Although I still disagree with your conclusion about infants and toddlers at Mass, especially when parents try to keep the sound level down and attend to their wee ones well,  I very much appreciate the reasonableness of your posts.  Your charity toward ALL, no matter  what side of the fence they sit, is admirable.

I was just going to say this. A few cheers for a kind, charitable response in what can often be a unseemly brawl.. :cheeseheadbeer:

Gardener

So those converts... the Church's future you say... they gonna shack up with TFP and not look at a woman or man except to spit vitriol about the quality of their cupboard's china, or get married and have kids?

"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Aeternitus

Quote from: MundaCorMeum on September 30, 2019, 06:33:07 AM
QuoteSo, to rephrase: most people don't want to do anything about considering options and/or discussing them with one's priest, because most people don't think there is any need to do so.  Why? Because the church doesn't have a law forbidding babies and toddlers at Mass attendance, whereas it does have the duty of fulfilling one's Sunday obligation.  Isn't that the case most people have presented?

I think I see what you mean now.  I don't think the case is that we don't want to do anything about the issue.  It's more that we feel our hands are tied.  There is not really anything we can do, except completely miss Mass for the duration of raising our babies.  I personally do not see that as a viable option.  Therefore, our solution is to then teach and expect our children to behave properly at Mass.  That is what we are doing, given the current reality of the situation.  Reality and ideals do not always line up, and we only have so much control over that.

And, yes, the fact that the Church does not have a law forbidding children (of any age) to attend Mass, yet does have the positive command to attend Mass under pain of mortal sin, is an important consideration.  We laity are not allowed to bind people to practices that Holy Mother Church Herself does not.  Regardless of whether it is the ideal or not, it is not intrinsic sinful to bring children (of any age to Mass).  Also, just because people are not able to meet a particular ideal, it does not automatically mean that said person is displeasing to God, as has been put forth as an argument previously. 

I think it's also important to distinguish between a discipline and a dogma.  Whether or not parents bring young children to Mass is a discipline.  So, The Church is within Her rights to allow that discipline to change, as She sees fit, regardless of if the laity approve or not.  The change also does no mean a prior discipline was wrong or less than ideal; it just means that The Church has decided that it is ok or necessary for the discipline to change for some reason. 

It is a dogma that missing Mass without grave reason incurs mortal sin.  That is a constant.  Having young children is not, that I can tell, grave reason to miss Mass.  As I said earlier, the Church allows six weeks for a mother to recover after child birth.  After that, her dispensation to be allowed to miss Mass is no longer applied.  That tells me that if I cannot find a way to leave the baby at home, then I have to bring him with me. 

It is not that we parents are trying to be displeasing to God, modern, feminist, are extolling the "virtue" of noise and disruption, are choosing to introduce noise and disruption into Mass, entitled, take pleasure at our children (of any age) disrupting other people's Mass experience (as if Mass is about any of us in the first place), or any other of those things that awkward accused parents of (which, I believe is where the outrage stems from.  It comes across as rash judgment and uncharitable to apply those statements to parents, in general). It's simply that we want to obey God's 3rd commandment.

Hi Munda,

Thank you for the time and trouble you have taken in this post and throughout this thread.  I have found your posts very helpful in coming to my own conclusions and I don't doubt that you do the best you can in these troubled times.  I think we just have to accept that we differ in some things, whilst have common ground in others.   

I don't think you necessarily understand mine in the way I hoped to convey it, but I am happy to put that down to my inability to express it sufficiently well.  All ok!  I don't think there is anything further I am able to offer except perhaps the suggestion to read The Hidden Treasure of the Mass by St Leonard of Port Maurice.  It is available online for free. I would be interested to know what you think of it. 


Aeternitus

Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on September 30, 2019, 03:14:42 PM
Quote from: orate on September 29, 2019, 06:07:47 AM
Aeternitus  Although I still disagree with your conclusion about infants and toddlers at Mass, especially when parents try to keep the sound level down and attend to their wee ones well,  I very much appreciate the reasonableness of your posts.  Your charity toward ALL, no matter  what side of the fence they sit, is admirable.

I was just going to say this. A few cheers for a kind, charitable response in what can often be a unseemly brawl.. :cheeseheadbeer:

Many thanks!  :toth: And just count yourself fortunate that you have only been exposed to my writing rather than my speech.  By nature I am short tempered, sharp tongued with a propensity to shoot from the hip. With only half a tongue, the rest bitten off in submission over the years, my speech is rather messy these days! 

Aeternitus

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 30, 2019, 10:04:01 AM
Quote from: Aeternitus on September 30, 2019, 06:08:34 AM
Awkward is not questioning the future of the Church.  She questioned a future triumph based on demographics.

Thank you, Aeternitus.

The future of the Church surely depends on CONVERSIONS.  The demographic argument comes from the priests of the various Trad groups.  Quite why they have adopted it is beyond me but it seems to universally held to be true across all Trad factions from what I can tell. 

A lot is said about 'state of life' and its various obligations.  But it has also been acknowledged that we are in an unprecedented, emergency situation. How far such obligations apply during times of crisis is never explained. 

And neither is it explained how far a state of life obligation applies if carrying that obligation out involves causing disturbance to oneself and others.

I'veen meaning to ask you about something you said in a previous post.

Quote
what I now know is my main focus should be on protecting and increasing the reverence, devotion, silence and attention the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves from me.

I'd love to know if you have any ideas about how to achieve this?  My guess is that nothing can be done at the parish level and that Tradition needs a new liturgical movement aimed at restoring the silence, reverence, attention and awe of the TLM.

We need priests, or even just one priest, like St Ambrose, St John Chrysostom, St Leonard.

Hello Awkward,

I have read The Hidden Treasure of the Mass by St Leonard before, which is why I knew where to look for  further information on the topic.   But that was years ago and it had become a faded and distant memory.  Still there, but hazy.  In reading it again, I was staggered at how much I had forgotten about the reverence and devotion due to the Mass.  This thread and dipping into St Leonard again, opened my eyes.  So I thank you, once more, for that, Awkward!  St Leonard says it in the book and in the title – the Mass is a hidden treasure found only by few.  In other words, one doesn't necessarily find the treasure it holds, simply by attending and fulfilling one's obligation.  Like the Faith, it has to be preserved and nurtured, lest it be lost.

I agree that the responsibility for this state of affairs rests with the priest.  I only have control over myself.  So I intend not to lose sight anymore of the treasure, hidden so well in the Mass. I intend to keep St Leonard close, to dip into regularly and particularly before Mass. I will discuss it with my friends and priests. I will pass on this book to those I think may benefit.  I will not accept a Mass that is too noisy as inevitable, nor allow myself to become immune to it, without creating some noise myself (after Mass!) with the priest responsible.  So, I will just do what I can... 

I don't hold any realistic hope of this issue being addressed until the crisis is resolved and the Church restored.           

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Aeternitus on October 01, 2019, 07:55:26 AM
Hello Awkward,

I have read The Hidden Treasure of the Mass by St Leonard before, which is why I knew where to look for  further information on the topic.   But that was years ago and it had become a faded and distant memory.  Still there, but hazy.  In reading it again, I was staggered at how much I had forgotten about the reverence and devotion due to the Mass.  This thread and dipping into St Leonard again, opened my eyes.  So I thank you, once more, for that, Awkward!  St Leonard says it in the book and in the title – the Mass is a hidden treasure found only by few.  In other words, one doesn't necessarily find the treasure it holds, simply by attending and fulfilling one's obligation.  Like the Faith, it has to be preserved and nurtured, lest it be lost.

I agree that the responsibility for this state of affairs rests with the priest.  I only have control over myself.  So I intend not to lose sight anymore of the treasure, hidden so well in the Mass. I intend to keep St Leonard close, to dip into regularly and particularly before Mass. I will discuss it with my friends and priests. I will pass on this book to those I think may benefit.  I will not accept a Mass that is too noisy as inevitable, nor allow myself to become immune to it, without creating some noise myself (after Mass!) with the priest responsible.  So, I will just do what I can... 

I don't hold any realistic hope of this issue being addressed until the crisis is resolved and the Church restored.         

You're probably right, Aeternitus, that the crisis in the Church must be resolved first unless, of course, addressing this issue is part of the resolutionn!!!  At any rate, I shall continue to seek out of the way, (probably) private, Low Masses where the beautiful silence has not been lost.

Meanwhile, I found 'The Hidden Treasure of the Holy Mass', by St Leonard of Port Maurice on several sites including here -

http://catholictradition.org/Eucharist/hidden-treasure.htm


And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Gardener on October 01, 2019, 05:58:04 AM
So those converts... the Church's future you say... they gonna shack up with TFP and not look at a woman or man except to spit vitriol about the quality of their cupboard's china, or get married and have kids?

To have even a hope of a resolution to the current crisis, the Church needs Tradition and Tradition needs conversions.

The demographic solution won't work, isn't working, hasn't worked.

Conversions are the future of the Church and Tradition isn't making any. 
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Aeternitus

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 01, 2019, 10:03:20 AM
Quote from: Gardener on October 01, 2019, 05:58:04 AM
So those converts... the Church's future you say... they gonna shack up with TFP and not look at a woman or man except to spit vitriol about the quality of their cupboard's china, or get married and have kids?

To have even a hope of a resolution to the current crisis, the Church needs Tradition and Tradition needs conversions.

The demographic solution won't work, isn't working, hasn't worked.

Conversions are the future of the Church and Tradition isn't making any.

In my view, the Mass is where the Church's future can be found.  God is going to save His Church.  His members are not.  They are going to be saved by His Church through being members of His Church.  So each members' duty should be to do everything in their power to protect and preserve the Mass in all its beauty, glory and reverential, awe-inspiring silence and sanctity.