My liberal church finally went over the edge.

Started by 2Towers, September 08, 2019, 06:18:48 PM

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The Harlequin King

Quote from: Sempronius on September 15, 2019, 10:25:07 AM
I recently found out that pews werent introducerad by protestants. There are 13th century legal documents where its specified that parishoners had to buy benches if they wanted them during mass. It was a legal document because the priests didnt have responsibility for the nave. (This was in some places in England.)

It's.... complicated. Protestants didn't invent pews, but they certainly expanded their usage far beyond what had been seen before. They had a much different idea of what a church building was to be used for: a place to sit and hear preaching and instruction like a synagogue, rather than a temple for liturgical and devotional prayers. Today, the Protestant idea has mostly won out.

Michael Wilson

Thank goodness for pews! I cannot kneel for very long or stand; if it wasn't for being able to sit down during Mass, I would have to skip going to High Mass and sometimes even low Mass, depending how my knees and feet are feeling.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 12:28:41 PM
Thank goodness for pews! I cannot kneel for very long or stand; if it wasn't for being able to sit down during Mass, I would have to skip going to High Mass and sometimes even low Mass, depending how my knees and feet are feeling.

Of course you wouldn't have had to skip going to Mass. In churches without pews you could sit on the benches in the side aisles. They were available for anyone who couldn't stand, kneel or prostrate themselves on the floor in the nave.

That's where the expression 'the weak can go to the wall' comes from.  It literally refers to the benches in the side aisles of churches where the 'weak' could sit.

Sitting in the presence of God, unless you had to, was frowned upon back then.  Not now though.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

#123
Quote from: The Harlequin King on September 15, 2019, 12:13:40 PM
Today, the Protestant idea has mostly won out.

And that's the problem.

It's been a long way down, but here we are.

How did it happen, that final descent?

They decided to let their children terrorise them and their women rule over them.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Michael Wilson

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 15, 2019, 12:49:09 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 12:28:41 PM
Thank goodness for pews! I cannot kneel for very long or stand; if it wasn't for being able to sit down during Mass, I would have to skip going to High Mass and sometimes even low Mass, depending how my knees and feet are feeling.

Of course you wouldn't have had to skip going to Mass. In churches without pews you could sit on the benches in the side aisles. They were available for anyone who couldn't stand, kneel or prostrate themselves on the floor in the nave.

That's where the expression 'the weak can go to the wall' comes from.  It literally refers to the benches in the side aisles of churches where the 'weak' could sit.

Sitting in the presence of God, unless you had to, was frowned upon back then.  Not now though.
So what is the difference between sitting on the benches in the side isles and sitting in the main isle; the principle is the same. Also thank goodness for padded kneelers; that is a real life saver for me and others who don't have a good set of knees.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

aquinas138

Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 01:11:39 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 15, 2019, 12:49:09 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 12:28:41 PM
Thank goodness for pews! I cannot kneel for very long or stand; if it wasn't for being able to sit down during Mass, I would have to skip going to High Mass and sometimes even low Mass, depending how my knees and feet are feeling.

Of course you wouldn't have had to skip going to Mass. In churches without pews you could sit on the benches in the side aisles. They were available for anyone who couldn't stand, kneel or prostrate themselves on the floor in the nave.

That's where the expression 'the weak can go to the wall' comes from.  It literally refers to the benches in the side aisles of churches where the 'weak' could sit.

Sitting in the presence of God, unless you had to, was frowned upon back then.  Not now though.
So what is the difference between sitting on the benches in the side isles and sitting in the main isle; the principle is the same. Also thank goodness for padded kneelers; that is a real life saver for me and others who don't have a good set of knees.

In the Russian Orthodox churches I've visited, everyone stands for the duration of the service; the elderly, infirm, and pregnant or nursing sit on benches around the side. People stand and turn to face the deacon as he censes the church, and they also make prostrations and bows at various times, so pews in the middle would definitely be in the way. In places where pews have become common, the ceremonial observed by the laity has become reduced. If kids get weary from standing, they just sit on the floor at their parents' feet. I think this was what was more or less the case in Roman churches in the earlier middle ages and antiquity—standing and kneeling right on the floor.

And my knees are bad too, though I find it much easier to just kneel on the floor—the kneelers, padded or otherwise, kill my knees.
What shall we call you, O full of grace? * Heaven? for you have shone forth the Sun of Righteousness. * Paradise? for you have brought forth the Flower of immortality. * Virgin? for you have remained incorrupt. * Pure Mother? for you have held in your holy embrace your Son, the God of all. * Entreat Him to save our souls.

The Curt Jester

Quote from: Innocent Smith on September 15, 2019, 09:10:41 AMAnd by the way, I notice lots of Trad parents raising idiot kids. Many cannot look another adult in the eye, say hello, or even shake hands with a friend of their parents. So don't tell me that home schooling does not effect socialization.

Homeschooling doesn't affect socialization in that way if parents bother to teach their children etiquette.  I teach in a school and the majority of the children have no socialization skills whatsoever.  They fail to say "Thank you", "Please," or "You're welcome", have the weakest handshakes imaginable and will do anything but look another person in the eye.  Their table manners are atrocious as well. Interestingly enough, we have only one student who has been previously home-schooled and she is one of the most outgoing, polite students we have.

So, yeah, I'll look you in the eye and tell you that proper homeschooling does not negatively affect socialization.

The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 01:11:39 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 15, 2019, 12:49:09 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 12:28:41 PM
Thank goodness for pews! I cannot kneel for very long or stand; if it wasn't for being able to sit down during Mass, I would have to skip going to High Mass and sometimes even low Mass, depending how my knees and feet are feeling.

Of course you wouldn't have had to skip going to Mass. In churches without pews you could sit on the benches in the side aisles. They were available for anyone who couldn't stand, kneel or prostrate themselves on the floor in the nave.

That's where the expression 'the weak can go to the wall' comes from.  It literally refers to the benches in the side aisles of churches where the 'weak' could sit.

Sitting in the presence of God, unless you had to, was frowned upon back then.  Not now though.
So what is the difference between sitting on the benches in the side isles and sitting in the main isle; the principle is the same. Also thank goodness for padded kneelers; that is a real life saver for me and others who don't have a good set of knees.

Sitting was the exception not the norm.  The side benches were not intended to be used like pews.  They were intended for those who needed to rest a while before they resumed the correct posture for a Catholic at prayer - standing, kneeling, or prostrate on the floor.  I'm sure that those who absolutely needed to sit there could, though.

Is standing painful for you?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Heinrich

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 15, 2019, 03:32:25 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 01:11:39 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 15, 2019, 12:49:09 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 12:28:41 PM
Thank goodness for pews! I cannot kneel for very long or stand; if it wasn't for being able to sit down during Mass, I would have to skip going to High Mass and sometimes even low Mass, depending how my knees and feet are feeling.

Of course you wouldn't have had to skip going to Mass. In churches without pews you could sit on the benches in the side aisles. They were available for anyone who couldn't stand, kneel or prostrate themselves on the floor in the nave.

That's where the expression 'the weak can go to the wall' comes from.  It literally refers to the benches in the side aisles of churches where the 'weak' could sit.

Sitting in the presence of God, unless you had to, was frowned upon back then.  Not now though.
So what is the difference between sitting on the benches in the side isles and sitting in the main isle; the principle is the same. Also thank goodness for padded kneelers; that is a real life saver for me and others who don't have a good set of knees.

Sitting was the exception not the norm.  The side benches were not intended to be used like pews.  They were intended for those who needed to rest a while before they resumed the correct posture for a Catholic at prayer - standing, kneeling, or prostrate on the floor.  I'm sure that those who absolutely needed to sit there could, though.

Is standing painful for you?

Standing is painful for me nowadays. I had to quite coaching football this year. Going through therapy and there are improvements. I have a pinched nerve that makes my left leg burn and standing onerous. As far kneeling, the pressure on my back and then the bone on bone left knee makes it that I can only get through the Credo, and then maybe to through the Consecration. After that, it normally sitzville for me until Patre Noster.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

Michael Wilson

A.C.
Standing for me was painful for a while, because I had black  callouses on the soles of my feet from standing all day at my job at school and at the liquour store. When I walked it felt like somebody was sticking pins into my feet. Also I had lower back problems, that I have been able to correct through visits to the Chryro and exercise. Kneeling, I have had bursitis in both knees for a long time, so I can't do it for very long.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Traditionallyruralmom

#130
Quote from: The Curt Jester on September 15, 2019, 02:24:33 PM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on September 15, 2019, 09:10:41 AMAnd by the way, I notice lots of Trad parents raising idiot kids. Many cannot look another adult in the eye, say hello, or even shake hands with a friend of their parents. So don't tell me that home schooling does not effect socialization.

Homeschooling doesn't affect socialization in that way if parents bother to teach their children etiquette.  I teach in a school and the majority of the children have no socialization skills whatsoever.  They fail to say "Thank you", "Please," or "You're welcome", have the weakest handshakes imaginable and will do anything but look another person in the eye.  Their table manners are atrocious as well. Interestingly enough, we have only one student who has been previously home-schooled and she is one of the most outgoing, polite students we have.

So, yeah, I'll look you in the eye and tell you that proper homeschooling does not negatively affect socialization.

To add to Curt's experience...

My oldest home educated lad is a US Marine.....no issues fitting in with the world there...I have people tell me all the time what a polite young man he is....
My next child (19) works at a local restaurant.  Last week, the girl she was working with said at the end of the night "You are so happy!  All the kids at my school are so depressed and grumpy, its so nice to be around someone who is happy!"
My 14 year old is naturally quiet, it is her personality.  But her manners and her ability to talk to people of any age are very good.
My 10 year old just competed in the county fair and won multiple first place prizes and had to interact with tons of people she did not know.  I had another mom who I had never met before,  come up to me today in the horse barn and tell me how sweet my daughter is, and how outgoing she is...
The rest of the children are young and loud and very silly......

Please don't paint us with a broad brush  :)
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: Heinrich on September 15, 2019, 05:40:00 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 15, 2019, 03:32:25 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 01:11:39 PM
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on September 15, 2019, 12:49:09 PM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 12:28:41 PM
Thank goodness for pews! I cannot kneel for very long or stand; if it wasn't for being able to sit down during Mass, I would have to skip going to High Mass and sometimes even low Mass, depending how my knees and feet are feeling.

Of course you wouldn't have had to skip going to Mass. In churches without pews you could sit on the benches in the side aisles. They were available for anyone who couldn't stand, kneel or prostrate themselves on the floor in the nave.

That's where the expression 'the weak can go to the wall' comes from.  It literally refers to the benches in the side aisles of churches where the 'weak' could sit.

Sitting in the presence of God, unless you had to, was frowned upon back then.  Not now though.
So what is the difference between sitting on the benches in the side isles and sitting in the main isle; the principle is the same. Also thank goodness for padded kneelers; that is a real life saver for me and others who don't have a good set of knees.

Sitting was the exception not the norm.  The side benches were not intended to be used like pews.  They were intended for those who needed to rest a while before they resumed the correct posture for a Catholic at prayer - standing, kneeling, or prostrate on the floor.  I'm sure that those who absolutely needed to sit there could, though.

Is standing painful for you?

Standing is painful for me nowadays. I had to quite coaching football this year. Going through therapy and there are improvements. I have a pinched nerve that makes my left leg burn and standing onerous. As far kneeling, the pressure on my back and then the bone on bone left knee makes it that I can only get through the Credo, and then maybe to through the Consecration. After that, it normally sitzville for me until Patre Noster.

Sorry to hear that.  I have a bad knee and hip which make it painful to kneel or sit for too long. Moving around helps, for me anyway.

But in a church without pews, there would be plenty of opportunity for you to sit and take rest. 

'Let the weak go to the wall.'  That's were the benches are.  And if that includes me, so be it.

PS. As per the 'vegetables are bad for you thread', since I went on a low oxalate diet, my aches and pains have reduced by 80%.  I don't know if your problem is the result of an injury, but decades of eating high oxalate foods can lead to accumulations of calcium oxalate crystals in the joints, causing pain and arthritis symptoms.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

#132
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 07:45:00 PM
A.C.
Standing for me was painful for a while, because I had black  callouses on the soles of my feet from standing all day at my job at school and at the liquour store. When I walked it felt like somebody was sticking pins into my feet. Also I had lower back problems, that I have been able to correct through visits to the Chryro and exercise. Kneeling, I have had bursitis in both knees for a long time, so I can't do it for very long.

As I said to Heinrich - sorry to hear that.  You have my sympathies, especially as I have had a painful knee and hip which was made much worse by kneeling or sitting in one place for too long.  And it they still play up from time to time.

This might sound harsh, but in a church without pews - the weak go to the wall where they can sit on the side benches, and that would include me.

It also might sound onerous.  The current arrangement is that everyone sits, has to sit, in pews packed into the nave.  This is what people are used to.  And so it might seem like a penalty to have to sit at the side if you're not fit enough to stand.

But standing, not sitting, in the presence of God was always the default, until pews put everyone in a box. In the Constantine Basilicas, the laity stood in the side aisles.  They did NOT sit it the nave.  The altar was in the west, facing the doors in the east and at the moment of Consecration, the laity turned towards the main doors in the east.

The Protestants put the laity in pews, in boxes, in order to emphasis the importance of word over sacrament, and so that they could thunderously impose the new religion on them. Once you're stuck in a pew, you're stuck in a pew.

The Tridentine Church disposed of Rood Screens, thereby opening up the Sanctuary to full view, and put the laity in pews where the default is to SIT in the presence of God.  While it is obviously true that the Tridentine Church produced great beauty and artistry in the churches of the period, this has to have had an effect on the mindset of those at prayer.  I suspect this was the first step in the great 'opening up to the world' which has led to the sorry state we now find ourselves in.

It would be interesting to experience Mass in a church without pews, would it not, just to find out?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

2Towers

I think even the monks sit at mass... except for during the consecration, and for that they stand.  Benedictine, I don't know about other orders.
The Kingdom of hope, knows no winter.
-Daniel SG-1

Markus