Our lady dancing liturgically

Started by jhfromsf68, January 08, 2018, 11:07:20 PM

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jhfromsf68

Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!
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Livenotonevil

#1
1. The idea that an 16th century painting of the Virgin Mary encourages liturgical dancing, because her knee is bent, is absolutely ridiculous.

2. The Church Fathers commenting on dance in the Old Testament - Saint Cyprian comes to mind - make it clear the dance that people like the Prophet David performed were not at all energetic or licentious, nor were they used liturgically.

Even then, looking to the Old Testament disciplines of the law, in order to justify specific deeds, especially outside the context of Tradition is fatalistic. By that logic, we are all going to be damned to hell because we don't circumcise and we eat pork. It also means we are allowed to stone adulterers and we should prophesize naked.

In the Old Testament, instruments were used; but the Church Fathers clearly make the point that the New Testament Church using instruments is absolutely forbidden, because the disciplines of the Old Law are obsolete, and the singing voice to God is more pure and beautiful than any artificial instrument could produce; the inferior music was preparation for the purer music by the Body of Christ.

The same is true for even "dancing", even though contemporary dancing was not at all like Judaic dancing, and even though such dancing was explicitly forbidden in Judaic worship. Such energetic movements in liturgical prayer ought to be forbidden. Such dancing does not produce an authentic relationship with God, but is an act for the purpose of creating physical and emotional sensations artificially.
May God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Carleendiane

Quote from: jhfromsf68 on January 08, 2018, 11:07:20 PM
Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!

:rofl:
To board the struggle bus: no whining, board with a smile, a fake one will be found out and put off at next stop, no maps, no directions, going only one way, one destination. Follow all rules and you will arrive. Drop off at pearly gate. Bring nothing.

Lynne

By the way, it's not a painting but a supernatural image imposed on an article of clothing.  :)
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael's Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    "My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you're supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen"

red solo cup

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jhfromsf68

Thanks for your responses.

I thought maybe Our Lady's bent knee in the Our Lady of Guadalupe image representing religious dancing was common knowledge among Catholics. I can see by the responses so far that's not true.
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Kaesekopf

Quote from: jhfromsf68 on January 08, 2018, 11:07:20 PM
Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!

This is a very stupid rationale.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Gardener

A lot of images of Our Lady have her knee out like that.

Could be a lot of reasons. One reason that could be of significance is in reference to her bruised heel from crushing the head of the serpent -- that has more theological significance, and is seen in other, non-Mexican images. I fail to believe that she is communicating an Aztec dance to French children, or Portuguese peasant children, or Carmelite saints... etc.

Examples:




"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Livenotonevil

May God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

drummerboy

- I'll get with the times when the times are worth getting with

"I like grumpy old cusses.  Hope to live long enough to be one" - John Wayne

drummerboy



From 10:00 minutes on.  Enjoy...or not :o
- I'll get with the times when the times are worth getting with

"I like grumpy old cusses.  Hope to live long enough to be one" - John Wayne

Gardener

Quote from: Livenotonevil on January 09, 2018, 08:44:47 PM
Or Greeks

Or Russians

Snipped pics for quoting purposes.

Since icons typically have very purposeful symbolism, do you happen to know or can you find out why her knee is out like that in the icons?
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Kaesekopf

Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Obrien

Something stands out in my mind regarding the bend in Our Lady's knee. It shows her complete humility to God and sets an example to us that "every knee shall bend".


dymphna17

Dear Lord, it's no wonder non-Catholics think we are a bunch of weirdos.  Uggghhhh!  Liturgical dance.  There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.   :rolleyes:

I agree with Obrien on this one.
?
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