Author Topic: Did ABL say that the "Conciliar Church" is not the Catholic Church?  (Read 164 times)

Offline GiftOfGod

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Apparently there are "numerous quotations from Archbishop Lefebvre to that effect, that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church." Where I can find these quotations?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 04:04:16 AM by GiftOfGod »
Quotes from Archbishop Lefebvre:

"[...W]e are not of this religion. We do not accept this new religion. We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this 'universal religion' as they call it today-this is not the Catholic religion any more.
(Sermon, June 29, 1976)

“This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church.(Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"All those who cooperate in the application of this upheaval, accept and adhere to this new Conciliar Church [...] enter into schism." (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"It is easy to think that whoever opposes the Council and its new Gospel would be considered as excommunicated, as outside communion with the Church. But one may well ask them, communion with what Church? They would answer, no doubt, with the Conciliar Church."
(I Accuse the Council, p. xiii, 1976)

"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Did ABL say that the "Conciliar Church" is not the Catholic Church?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2021, 02:44:22 PM »
I found them:

"It is easy to think that whoever opposes the Council and its new Gospel would be considered as excommunicated, as outside communion with the Church. But one may well ask them, communion with what Church? They would answer, no doubt, with the Conciliar Church."
(I Accuse the Council, Archbishop Lefebvre, p. xiii, 1976)

"[...W]e are not of this religion. We do not accept this new religion. We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this 'universal religion' as they call it today-this is not the Catholic religion any more.
(Sermon, June 29, 1976)

"Let there be no mistake, it is not a matter of a difference between Mgr. Lefebvre and Pope Paul VI. It is a matter of the radical incompatibility between the Catholic Church and the conciliar church, the mass of Paul VI representing the symbol and the program of the conciliar church."
(Archbishop Lefebvre (speaking about himself in the third person), in Agence France Presse Communiqué, 12th July 1976; Cardinal Seper also quoted these words of Archbishop Lefebvre back to him in a January 11, 1979 interrogation of Archbishop Lefebvre published in the May 1979 issue of Itineraires, number 233, p. 144-145, under the title Archbishop Lefebvre and the Holy Office)

"How could it be clearer?! From now on it is the conciliar church one must obey and be faithful to, and not to the Catholic Church. This is precisely our problem. We are suspended a divinis by the conciliar church, of which we do not want to be a part. This conciliar church is a schismatic church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church of all time. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new liturgy, already condemned by the Church in many official and definitive documents. This is why the founders of the conciliar church insist on obedience to the church of today, making abstraction of the Church of yesterday, as if it didn’t exist anymore. ... The church which affirms such errors is at one and the same time heretical and schismatic. This conciliar church is therefore not Catholic."
(Handwritten and photocopied, of July 29th 1976, to his friends; reproduced in the Dominican Fathers of Avrillé's Sel de la Terre #36, p. 10)

"Rome has lost the Faith, my dear friends. Rome is in apostasy. These are not words in the air. It is the truth. Rome is in apostasy. They have left the Church. This is sure, sure, sure. It is a schismatic council. The Church which affirms such errors is both schismatic and heretical. This Conciliar Church is therefore not Catholic. To whatever extent pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church. The Novus Ordo Mass is a bastard rite. The Novus Ordo sacraments are bastard sacraments. The Novus Ordo priests emerging from the Novus Ordo seminaries are bastard priests. So we are excommunicated by Modernists, by people who have been condemned by previous popes. We are condemned by men who are themselves condemned. It is a Church that I do not recognize. I belong to the Catholic Church. Let us add this, that the greatest service we can render to the Church and to the successor of Peter is to reject the “reformed” and liberal church. I am not of that religion, I do not accept that new religion. It is a liberal, modernist religion. We are not of this new religion! We do not accept this new religion! We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this “universal religion” as they call it today—this is not the Catholic religion any more. We are not of this liberal, modernist religion which has its own worship, its own priests, its own faith, its own catechisms, its own “ecumenical” Bible. We cannot accept these things. They are contrary to our Faith. We choose not to abandon our faith, for in that we cannot go wrong. We are convinced of this, it is they who are wrong, who have changed course, who have broken with the Tradition of the Church, who have rushed into novelties, we are convinced of this. That is why we do not rejoin them and why we cannot work with them; we cannot collaborate with the people who depart from the spirit of the Church, from the Tradition of the Church."
(July 29, 1976 Reflections on the Suspension a divinis, interview published July 30, 1976 in the periodical called Minute, no. 747)

This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church.” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"All those who cooperate in the application of this upheaval, accept and adhere to this new Conciliar Church [...] enter into schism." (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

It is not we who are in schism but the Conciliar Church.” (Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000 – these words appear in the original un-corrected version of the sermon as recorded and reported in the press)
[...T]hat is why we are not is schism, it is we who continue the Catholic Church. It is the innovators who are drifting into schism.]
(Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976)

"Which Church are we talking about? Are we talking about the Catholic Church, or another church, a Counter church, a counterfeit of the Church? Now, I think sincerely, that we are talking about a counterfeit version of the Church, and not the Catholic Church. It does not teach any longer the Catholic faith. It teaches something else, it leads the Church to something else other than the Catholic Church. It is no longer the Catholic Church. They are sitting in the chairs of their predecessors, ... but they are not continuing in the line of their predecessors. They no longer have the same faith, nor the same doctrine, nor the same morality as their predecessors. So it is no longer possible. And principally, their great error is ecumenism. They teach an ecumenism which is contrary to the Catholic faith. ... The Church is occupied by this counter-church which we know well and that the Popes knew perfectly, and that the Popes have condemned throughout the centuries; for what will be soon four centuries, the Church did not stop condemning this counter-church which was born especially with protestantism, and which was developed with protestantism, and which is at the origin of all modern errors, which has destroyed all philosophy, and which has led us to all the errors we have known, that the Popes have condemned; liberalism, socialism, communism, modernism, sillonism. We are dying from them. The Popes did everything to condemn that, and now behold those who are in the chairs of those who condemned these errors are in agreement with this liberalism and ecumenism. Now we cannot accept that. And the more things become clear, the more we perceive that this program ... all these errors, were elaborated in the masonic lodges."
(Spiritual conference, Econe, 21st of June 1978, published in the Dominican Fathers of Avrillé's Sel de la Terre #50, p. 244)

"How can one avoid the conclusion: there where the faith of the Church is, there also is her sanctity, and there where the sanctity of the Church is, there is the Catholic Church? A Church which no longer brings forth good fruits, a Church which is sterile, is not the Catholic Church."
(Letter to Friends and Benefactors, September 8, 1978)

"[T]hey have put us out of an official Church which is not the real Church,"
(Sermon, June 27, 1980, Ecône)

We consider as null…all the post-conciliar reforms, and all the acts of Rome accomplished in this impiety.” (Joint Declaration with Bishop de Castro Mayer following Assisi, December 2, 1986)

“To be publicly associated with the sanction [of excommunication] would be a mark of honour and a sign of orthodoxy before the faithful, who have a strict right to know that the priests they approach are not in communion with a counterfeit Church…” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 SSPX superiors, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)

John Paul II “now continually diffuses the principles of a false religion, which has for its result a general apostasy.” (Preface to Giulio Tam’s Osservatore Romano 1990, contributed by the Archbishop just three weeks before his death)

"It is, therefore, a strict duty for every priest wanting to remain Catholic to separate himself from this Conciliar Church for as long as it does not rediscover the Tradition of the Church and of the Catholic Faith."
(Spiritual Journey by Archbishop Lefebvre, Ch. 3, 1991)

"The faithful ... will understand that salvation is in the Catholic Church and not in the Conciliar Church that becomes more and more schismatic."
(Words of Archbishop Lefebvre quoted in a November 1, 1995 conference in Kansas City, given by Fr. Ramon Anglés.)

"But the Church against her past and her Tradition is not the Catholic Church; this is why being excommunicated by a liberal, ecumenical, and revolutionary Church is a matter of indifference to us."
(Biography of Marcel Lefebvre, by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, 2004, quoting Archbishop Lefebvre, p.547)
« Last Edit: Today at 01:34:19 AM by GiftOfGod »
Quotes from Archbishop Lefebvre:

"[...W]e are not of this religion. We do not accept this new religion. We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this 'universal religion' as they call it today-this is not the Catholic religion any more.
(Sermon, June 29, 1976)

“This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church.(Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"All those who cooperate in the application of this upheaval, accept and adhere to this new Conciliar Church [...] enter into schism." (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"It is easy to think that whoever opposes the Council and its new Gospel would be considered as excommunicated, as outside communion with the Church. But one may well ask them, communion with what Church? They would answer, no doubt, with the Conciliar Church."
(I Accuse the Council, p. xiii, 1976)

"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)
 
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Offline Aulef

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Re: Did ABL say that the "Conciliar Church" is not the Catholic Church?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2021, 06:34:31 PM »
Powerful statements taken out of context, to say the least.
Tota pulchra es, Maria
Et macula originalis non est in Te
 
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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Did ABL say that the "Conciliar Church" is not the Catholic Church?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2021, 07:40:46 PM »
Powerful statements taken out of context, to say the least.
You want some context?

We consider as null…all the post-conciliar reforms, and all the acts of Rome accomplished in this impiety.” (Joint Declaration with Bishop de Castro Mayer following Assisi, December 2, 1986)
http://archives.sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/1986_declaration_against_assisi_archbishop_lefebvre-bishop_de_castro_mayer.htm

It is not we who are in schism but the Conciliar Church.” (Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000 – these words appear in the original un-corrected version of the sermon as recorded and reported in the press)
I am unable to find a transcript but this gives some context:
https://fsspx.uk/en/hot-summer-1976-and-archbishop-lefebvre
https://sspx.org/en/mass-lille-1976

[...That is why we are not is schism, it is we who continue the Catholic Church. It is the innovators who are drifting into schism.]
(Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976)
https://cor-mariae.com/threads/archbishop-lefebvre-revisited-mass-at-lille-1976.8350/
Audio of the homily:
"[...W]e are not of this religion. We do not accept this new religion. We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this 'universal religion' as they call it today-this is not the Catholic religion any more.
(Sermon, June 29, 1976)
http://www.archbishoplefebvre.com/june-29-1976.html

This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church.” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)
"All those who cooperate in the application of this upheaval, accept and adhere to this new Conciliar Church [...] enter into schism." (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)
http://fsspx.com/Communicantes/Oct2002/Servile_Obedience.htm

"It is easy to think that whoever opposes the Council and its new Gospel would be considered as excommunicated, as outside communion with the Church. But one may well ask them, communion with what Church? They would answer, no doubt, with the Conciliar Church."
I Accuse the Council, p. xiii, 1976
https://archive.org/details/IAccuseTheCouncilLefebvreAbp.MarcelFrancois/page/n11/mode/1up

"[T]hey have put us out of an official Church which is not the real Church,"
(Sermon, June 27, 1980)
http://www.archbishoplefebvre.com/june-27-1980.html

“To be publicly associated with the sanction [of excommunication] would be a mark of honour and a sign of orthodoxy before the faithful, who have a strict right to know that the priests they approach are not in communion with a counterfeit Church…” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 SSPX superiors, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)
http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Vatican/Part_I/1988-07-06.htm

Explain those away in this thread and I'll consider spending more time tracking down contexts for the rest of the quotes.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:51:49 AM by GiftOfGod »
Quotes from Archbishop Lefebvre:

"[...W]e are not of this religion. We do not accept this new religion. We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this 'universal religion' as they call it today-this is not the Catholic religion any more.
(Sermon, June 29, 1976)

“This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church.(Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"All those who cooperate in the application of this upheaval, accept and adhere to this new Conciliar Church [...] enter into schism." (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"It is easy to think that whoever opposes the Council and its new Gospel would be considered as excommunicated, as outside communion with the Church. But one may well ask them, communion with what Church? They would answer, no doubt, with the Conciliar Church."
(I Accuse the Council, p. xiii, 1976)

"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)
 
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Offline Aulef

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Re: Did ABL say that the "Conciliar Church" is not the Catholic Church?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2021, 09:06:28 PM »
Powerful statements taken out of context, to say the least.
You want some context?

We consider as null…all the post-conciliar reforms, and all the acts of Rome accomplished in this impiety.” (Joint Declaration with Bishop de Castro Mayer following Assisi, December 2, 1986)
http://archives.sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/1986_declaration_against_assisi_archbishop_lefebvre-bishop_de_castro_mayer.htm

It is not we who are in schism but the Conciliar Church.” (Homily preached at Lille, August 29, 1976, before a crowd of some 12,000 – these words appear in the original un-corrected version of the sermon as recorded and reported in the press)
I am unable to find a transcript but this gives some context:
https://fsspx.uk/en/hot-summer-1976-and-archbishop-lefebvre
https://sspx.org/en/mass-lille-1976

"[...W]e are not of this religion. We do not accept this new religion. We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this 'universal religion' as they call it today-this is not the Catholic religion any more.
(Sermon, June 29, 1976)
http://www.archbishoplefebvre.com/june-29-1976.html

This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church.” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)
http://fsspx.com/Communicantes/Oct2002/Servile_Obedience.htm

"[T]hey have put us out of an official Church which is not the real Church,"
(Sermon, June 27, 1980)
http://www.archbishoplefebvre.com/june-27-1980.html

“To be publicly associated with the sanction [of excommunication] would be a mark of honour and a sign of orthodoxy before the faithful, who have a strict right to know that the priests they approach are not in communion with a counterfeit Church…” (Open Letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988, signed by 24 SSPX superiors, doubtless with Archbishop Lefebvre’s approval)
http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Vatican/Part_I/1988-07-06.htm

Explain those away in this thread and I'll consider spending more time tracking down contexts for the rest of the quotes.


That's better. Now pick one, please.
Tota pulchra es, Maria
Et macula originalis non est in Te
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Did ABL say that the "Conciliar Church" is not the Catholic Church?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2021, 09:10:32 PM »
That's better. Now pick one, please.
I'll leave that to you, Aulef.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:46:49 AM by GiftOfGod »
Quotes from Archbishop Lefebvre:

"[...W]e are not of this religion. We do not accept this new religion. We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this 'universal religion' as they call it today-this is not the Catholic religion any more.
(Sermon, June 29, 1976)

“This Council represents, in our view and in the view of the Roman authorities, a new Church which they call the Conciliar Church.(Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"All those who cooperate in the application of this upheaval, accept and adhere to this new Conciliar Church [...] enter into schism." (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

"It is easy to think that whoever opposes the Council and its new Gospel would be considered as excommunicated, as outside communion with the Church. But one may well ask them, communion with what Church? They would answer, no doubt, with the Conciliar Church."
(I Accuse the Council, p. xiii, 1976)

"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)