Author Topic: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?  (Read 568 times)

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2021, 05:52:31 PM »
You are just a a low grade troll who has a grab bag of things from loving the death jab, abusing people far better than you, loving globohomo, and of course promoting sedevacantism which do not understand.
Show me where I was "loving globohomo". The biggest globohomo lovers here are the Irish, who insist that "Ireland is Catholic" and the Irish are Catholic despite the fact that they have voted, by referendum, divorce, sodomy, gay marriage, and abortion. Oh, and has a homosexual Indian immigrant PM. The Irish are globohomo incarnate.

Please explain to me how I don't understand sedevacantism because this is the first time I've been told this, whereas I have been complimented many times, online and offline, in my understanding and argumentation of that issue.

You seem to care so much about whether Ireland is Catholic. The US has or got all these things and those responsible suffered nothing politically.
The Irish voted for all those thing by referendum. Americans had abortion and homo marriage pushed on us by unelected judges.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 02:45:57 PM by GiftOfGod »
"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2021, 02:03:44 PM »
In the sense that protestant marriages are more easily dissolved. If priestly ordinations are invalid in the Novus Ordo like the SSPX suspects...then wouldn't marriages in the NO be similar to protestant marriages?
bolded:
This is a bold assertion. In what sense are Protestant marriages more easily dissolved?
italics:
Why would marriages in the NO be similar to Protestant marriages if the priests of the NO are invalidly ordained?

I think I may have made a mistake by following what 1 person said in this thread (https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=26459.0). I guess it has yet to be proven whether or not a protestant marriage is more easily dissolvable. So I shouldn't assume that. Sorry if you felt misled in any kind of way as it was probably me being misled in the first place. But who knows maybe it really is more easily dissolvable. In that thread, there are varying opinions on the matter.

Who said what?

You didnít lead me astray. Usually when I ask questions Iím giving answers.
The Modern Attack will not tolerate us. It will attempt to
destroy us. Nor can we tolerate it. We must attempt to destroy it as being the fully equipped and ardent enemy of the Truth by which men live. The duel is to the death.Ē - Hilaire Belloc, The Great Heresies
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2021, 09:40:21 PM »
Unless you can demonstrate that Novus Ordo ordinations are invalid, then this thread is going to be yet another brain-dead, ill-willed sedefest.
They don't have to be demonstrated invalid; all that's needed is for them to be demonstrated as doubtful (validity). If you don't think that they are doubtful then you haven't opened your eyes to the multitude of writings on the subject. If you want to whistle past the graveyard, then that's fine, it's your soul. But to try to force your willful ignorance onto others is dangerous.

Even the SSPX doubts their validity. Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians? Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination?

When you're more aligned with the Novus Ordo than the SSPX you've got a problem.

No the SSPX doesn't doubt the validity
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2021, 10:31:15 PM »
Unless you can demonstrate that Novus Ordo ordinations are invalid, then this thread is going to be yet another brain-dead, ill-willed sedefest.
They don't have to be demonstrated invalid; all that's needed is for them to be demonstrated as doubtful (validity). If you don't think that they are doubtful then you haven't opened your eyes to the multitude of writings on the subject. If you want to whistle past the graveyard, then that's fine, it's your soul. But to try to force your willful ignorance onto others is dangerous.

Even the SSPX doubts their validity. Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians? Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination?

When you're more aligned with the Novus Ordo than the SSPX you've got a problem.

No the SSPX doesn't doubt the validity

Then answer my questions:

Quote
Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians?
Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination?
"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)
 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2021, 05:47:39 AM »

Then answer my questions:

Quote
Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians?
Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination?

I attached a PDF with 40 pages of +ABL's quotes, the new sacraments are pages 12-22, here are a few......

1983

The Society does not say that all the sacraments according to the new post-conciliar rites are invalid, but that due to bad translations, the lack of proper intention, and the changes introduced in the matter and form, the number of invalid and doubtful sacraments is increasing. In order, then, to reach a decision in the practical order concerning the doubtfulness or invalidity of sacraments given by priests imbued with the ideas of the Council, a serious study of the various circumstances is necessary.


....We must perform an application of these conditions. . .to the new rite Sacraments of the reform of Vatican II. In some cases it is very difficult to know if it is valid or not. Especially in the vernacular  translations of the form of the sacraments. In Latin it is easier to know if its valid or invalid, but in the vernacular, it is very difficult to know if some words invalidate a sacrament. So we must do, in some cases, a detailed study of that case. You know that many priests today change the form of the Sacrament! That is another difficulty in determining validity or invalidity, e.g. 'What did this bishop say when he did this sacrament? ... We must perform an examination of these things before we can say they are valid or invalid. We must study each case."
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2021, 05:35:48 PM »

Then answer my questions:

Quote
Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians?
Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination?

I attached a PDF with 40 pages of +ABL's quotes, the new sacraments are pages 12-22, here are a few......

1983

The Society does not say that all the sacraments according to the new post-conciliar rites are invalid, but that due to bad translations, the lack of proper intention, and the changes introduced in the matter and form, the number of invalid and doubtful sacraments is increasing. In order, then, to reach a decision in the practical order concerning the doubtfulness or invalidity of sacraments given by priests imbued with the ideas of the Council, a serious study of the various circumstances is necessary.


....We must perform an application of these conditions. . .to the new rite Sacraments of the reform of Vatican II. In some cases it is very difficult to know if it is valid or not. Especially in the vernacular  translations of the form of the sacraments. In Latin it is easier to know if its valid or invalid, but in the vernacular, it is very difficult to know if some words invalidate a sacrament. So we must do, in some cases, a detailed study of that case. You know that many priests today change the form of the Sacrament! That is another difficulty in determining validity or invalidity, e.g. 'What did this bishop say when he did this sacrament? ... We must perform an examination of these things before we can say they are valid or invalid. We must study each case."
Your own quote proves me correct. Look at all the mentions of doubt that I highlighted in red.

My questions haven't been answered by St.Justin. He does not want to admit that 1) the SSPX uses the old rites because the new rites are doubtful and 2) they ask NO-to-SSPX priests to undergo a conditional re-ordination because the new rites are doubtful. He doesn't want to admit that his statement of "No the SSPX doesn't doubt the validity" is wrong.
"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2021, 06:33:42 PM »
Unless you can demonstrate that Novus Ordo ordinations are invalid, then this thread is going to be yet another brain-dead, ill-willed sedefest.
They don't have to be demonstrated invalid; all that's needed is for them to be demonstrated as doubtful (validity). If you don't think that they are doubtful then you haven't opened your eyes to the multitude of writings on the subject. If you want to whistle past the graveyard, then that's fine, it's your soul. But to try to force your willful ignorance onto others is dangerous.

Even the SSPX doubts their validity. Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians? Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination?

When you're more aligned with the Novus Ordo than the SSPX you've got a problem.

No the SSPX doesn't doubt the validity

Then answer my questions:

Quote
Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians?
Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination?

"Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians?" Because they are Latin Rite
"Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination? That is not a correct statement. Only in a few rare cses doe this happen
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2021, 06:40:59 PM »
"Why would they bother using the old rites on their seminarians?" Because they are Latin Rite
And? According to the Conciliar Church, which you believe in, the Novus Ordo is the Latin Rite.

"Why would they bother asking Novus Ordo priest converts to undergo conditional re-ordination? That is not a correct statement. Only in a few rare cses doe this happen
Like this?
Quote
Most Rev. Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, to this day does not accept the validity of the Paul VI rite of holy orders. On June 29, 2016, Bp. Tissier stated in a public ordination sermon: “Obviously, we cannot accept this new, tampered-with ordination rite, which casts doubts on the validity of numerous ordinations [done] according to the new rite”
https://novusordowatch.org/2016/07/tissier-invalidity-novus-ordo-ordinations/
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 06:56:38 PM by GiftOfGod »
"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)
 
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2021, 08:02:59 PM »
You are just a a low grade troll who has a grab bag of things from loving the death jab, abusing people far better than you, loving globohomo, and of course promoting sedevacantism which do not understand.
Show me where I was "loving globohomo". The biggest globohomo lovers here are the Irish, who insist that "Ireland is Catholic" and the Irish are Catholic despite the fact that they have voted, by referendum, divorce, sodomy, gay marriage, and abortion. Oh, and has a homosexual Indian immigrant PM. The Irish are globohomo incarnate.

Please explain to me how I don't understand sedevacantism because this is the first time I've been told this, whereas I have been complimented many times, online and offline, in my understanding and argumentation of that issue.

You seem to care so much about whether Ireland is Catholic. The US has or got all these things and those responsible suffered nothing politically.
The Irish voted for all those thing by referendum. Americans had abortion and homo marriage pushed on us by unelected judges.

The supporters of homo marriage and abortion regularly get the plurality of US votes or close to it. The US attitude seems to be supportive of abortion albeit with some restrictions. If there was a fag 'marriage' vote in the US, it would have passed handily, given Trump waving the sodomite flag during his campaign. The abortion vote was dubious, a result substantially different from polls. If Ireland's worthless bishops (one one said anything in a strong way) has made an effort, a vote against could have happened, a vote too great to rig. If the abortion supporting Francis (his selective silences and friendships with Emma Bonino and other strong supporters of abortion, plus other things) had said something against it, it would have helped. No a word even when he visited Ireland after. The 'gay marriage' vote was also dubious.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 
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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Should Novus Ordo marriages be treated as protestant marriages?
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2021, 08:33:04 PM »
If there was a fag 'marriage' vote in the US, it would have passed handily, given Trump waving the sodomite flag during his campaign.
No it wouldn't. If that were the case then the Supreme Court wouldn't have needed to force it nationwide. Keep coping.
"[Popes Pius VI through Pius XII] have resisted the union of the Church with the [French] Revolution; it is an adulterous union and from such a union only bastards can come. The rite of the new mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments. We no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or do not give it. The priests coming out of the seminaries are bastard priests, who do not know what they are."
(Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, An Open Letter to Confused Catholics [Fowler Wright Books, Ltd., for the Society of St. Pius X in 1986], p. 116)