Does anyone find Manicheaism wild?

[Ragnarok]

So in Persia, a so-called Prophet of God, named Mani, founded a Gnostic based religion, describing himself to be the final prophet of God (not unlike the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad) in the 200s.

His belief was an interesting blend of Zoroastrianism and Christian Gnosticism- he believed there was a cosmic eternal fight between spiritual light and materialist darkness, and he believed salvation could be found in the light, or God the Father. Rightly so, his religion was called Gnostic, because he believed the material world was a creation of evil, and the True God was pure spirit.

So Iran was a perfect place for many different religious beliefs to come together - you had Christianity (and it's Gnostic variants) spread from the Middle East up to modern-day Turkey and then Eastward to Armenia and Georgia (Christianity was the official religion of those Kingdoms during the life of Mani), you had Zoroastrianism in Iran which was older than Christianity, and you had Buddhism moving from India up, eastward and to a limited degree westward.

The Prophet, Mani, claimed in his religion that Zoroaster (or Zarathustra), Jesus, and the Buddha were all Prophets of God, and he, Mani, was the final Prophet of God.

Here's what is so insane to me.

Manichaeism spread from Persia all the way to Carthage in Northwest Africa, up to Great Britain, and all the way to East China.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

Before China and Europe even knew of each other's existence (from the 200s to the 1300s, Europe thought that India was the farthest place East one could go), through Manichaeism, China actually heard of who Jesus was, and Great Britain and Africa heard who the Buddha was.
Granted, this never became a popular religion - China remained predominately Buddhist, Daoist, and Confucian. But still.

We actually have Chinese Manichean scrolls from the 12th-13th century, depicting a Chinese Jesus Christ, before Europe even contacted China.



Here's the Wikipedia article on this exact scroll.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaean_Painting_of_the_Buddha_Jesus

Additionally, Saint Augustine of Hippo was a Manichean before he converted to Catholicism - meaning that Saint Augustine venerated Zoroaster and the Buddha.

That's insane to me.

[Prayerful]

I would note that there was a possible Chinese embassy to Augustus (or so the historian Florus, c. 100 AD, claimed), and Antonius Pius or Marcus Aurelius sent an embassy in 166 AD to the Han Emperor Huan. A Han General Ban Chao while in the midst of campaigning against the Parthians sent out explorers who brought back garbled reports. The knowledge was hazy, but Rome and China were aware of each other. Modernday India and Sri Lanka were points regularly reached by ships from Egypt. That said, Manicheism spread very far considering how persecuted it was. Ancient persecutions were sporadic, but Christianity had intervals of deliberate official tolerance before Constantine, while the religion of Mani was a capital offence, even if it was more ignored than persecuted. Christians ranged far at an early point. Coptic Christianity came to India via Egypt and the so called Church of the East or Nestorianism spread throughout Persia and deep into China.

[aquinas138]

I studied a lot of Manichaean texts in graduate school; Coptic was my minor language. It's really interesting stuff—it's the only "world religion" to actually disappear from the earth.

I don't think that Gnosticism is a great label for Manichaeism, though. Though there was a division between "elect" and "hearers," the elect did not possess secret knowledge but rather their bodies functioned as furnaces that purified matter and released the particles of Light ("the suffering Jesus" or the "Cross of Light") trapped in matter. The Mandaeans of the Middle East are the only ancient group that actually called themselves "Gnostic," "Mandaean" being their dialect of Aramaic's word for "gnostic."

[Lydia Purpuraria]

I studied a lot of Manichaean texts in graduate school; Coptic was my minor language. It's really interesting stuff—it's the only "world religion" to actually disappear from the earth.

I don't think that Gnosticism is a great label for Manichaeism, though. Though there was a division between "elect" and "hearers," the elect did not possess secret knowledge but rather their bodies functioned as furnaces that purified matter and released the particles of Light ("the suffering Jesus" or the "Cross of Light") trapped in matter. The Mandaeans of the Middle East are the only ancient group that actually called themselves "Gnostic," "Mandaean" being their dialect of Aramaic's word for "gnostic."

I'd always been under the assumption/impression that the Manichaeans were Gnostics; but what you mentioned here as your reasons for why it might not be the best label for them makes sense (and it really is interesting and "wild" stuff! LOL)  Thanks for your informative post, aquinas138.

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Interesting thread, Ragnarok!

[aquinas138]

I studied a lot of Manichaean texts in graduate school; Coptic was my minor language. It's really interesting stuff—it's the only "world religion" to actually disappear from the earth.

I don't think that Gnosticism is a great label for Manichaeism, though. Though there was a division between "elect" and "hearers," the elect did not possess secret knowledge but rather their bodies functioned as furnaces that purified matter and released the particles of Light ("the suffering Jesus" or the "Cross of Light") trapped in matter. The Mandaeans of the Middle East are the only ancient group that actually called themselves "Gnostic," "Mandaean" being their dialect of Aramaic's word for "gnostic."

I'd always been under the assumption/impression that the Manicheans were Gnostics; but what you mentioned here as your reasons for why it might not be the best label for them makes sense (and it really is interesting and "wild" stuff! LOL)  Thanks for your informative post, aquinas138.

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Interesting thread, Ragnarok!

A lot of scholars are skeptical of the "gnostic" label because it conflates a lot of pretty disparate groups; it was usually a term of vituperation used by their opponents rather than a self-description. It is often used as an umbrella term for early heterodox and heretical Christians or semi-Christians, but it can be really misleading about a group's beliefs or practices.

[Tennessean]

I would note that there was a possible Chinese embassy to Augustus (or so the historian Florus, c. 100 AD, claimed), and Antonius Pius or Marcus Aurelius sent an embassy in 166 AD to the Han Emperor Huan. A Han General Ban Chao while in the midst of campaigning against the Parthians sent out explorers who brought back garbled reports. The knowledge was hazy, but Rome and China were aware of each other. Modernday India and Sri Lanka were points regularly reached by ships from Egypt. That said, Manicheism spread very far considering how persecuted it was. Ancient persecutions were sporadic, but Christianity had intervals of deliberate official tolerance before Constantine, while the religion of Mani was a capital offence, even if it was more ignored than persecuted. Christians ranged far at an early point. Coptic Christianity came to India via Egypt and the so called Church of the East or Nestorianism spread throughout Persia and deep into China.

I wanted to add, this isn't much, but from what I remember of reading about early Christians and heretics, they mostly followed established shipping lanes and Jewish trade. The apostles had done so too (St Thomas somewhere in India.) God used the diaspora to spread the Faith, against their leaders' designs, so that Jews everywhere had heard the Good News of Jesus, and many gentiles were blessed through them. This was a fulfillment of prophecy.

[Prayerful]

I would note that there was a possible Chinese embassy to Augustus (or so the historian Florus, c. 100 AD, claimed), and Antonius Pius or Marcus Aurelius sent an embassy in 166 AD to the Han Emperor Huan. A Han General Ban Chao while in the midst of campaigning against the Parthians sent out explorers who brought back garbled reports. The knowledge was hazy, but Rome and China were aware of each other. Modernday India and Sri Lanka were points regularly reached by ships from Egypt. That said, Manicheism spread very far considering how persecuted it was. Ancient persecutions were sporadic, but Christianity had intervals of deliberate official tolerance before Constantine, while the religion of Mani was a capital offence, even if it was more ignored than persecuted. Christians ranged far at an early point. Coptic Christianity came to India via Egypt and the so called Church of the East or Nestorianism spread throughout Persia and deep into China.

I wanted to add, this isn't much, but from what I remember of reading about early Christians and heretics, they mostly followed established shipping lanes and Jewish trade. The apostles had done so too (St Thomas somewhere in India.) God used the diaspora to spread the Faith, against their leaders' designs, so that Jews everywhere had heard the Good News of Jesus, and many gentiles were blessed through them. This was a fulfillment of prophecy.

Yes. St Thomas certainly followed what was probably the busiest sealane from the Empire to outside. Jews had a presence all the way to China, which must have eased conversions.

One thing with Buddhism is that some Indo-Greek or Bactrian rulers converted to it directly rather through Manicheism.