Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.

Started by Philip G., March 24, 2021, 08:29:17 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Jayne

Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 11:07:18 AMI think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Philip G.

Quote from: Jayne on March 31, 2021, 11:40:23 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 11:07:18 AMI think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.

There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority. 
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Jayne

Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 02:39:59 PM
There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority.

While studying this subject at the undergraduate level does not make me an expert, it does mean that I have a basic knowledge of it.  I certainly know enough to tell that you have no idea what you are talking about.  You do not have an argument.  You are throwing together a bunch of confused ideas in a completely illogical manner.  You are not making sense.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Heinrich

Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: Jayne on March 31, 2021, 11:40:23 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 11:07:18 AMI think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.

There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority.

*between you and me
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.

Christina_S

Quote from: Heinrich on March 31, 2021, 06:50:01 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: Jayne on March 31, 2021, 11:40:23 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 11:07:18 AMI think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.

There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority.

*between you and me
Yeah, if you're having trouble with English, I can see why you might bash people who speak multiple languages /sarc.  ::)

In all seriousness though, Jayne is right. This is a subjective, baseless opinion masquerading as fact. That is not Catholic. What is your goal in arguing this?
"You cannot be a half-saint; you must be a whole saint or no saint at all." ~St. Therese of Lisieux

Check out the blog that I run with my husband! https://theromanticcatholic.wordpress.com/
Latest posts: Why "Be Yourself" is Bad Advice
Fascination with Novelty
The Wedding Garment of Faith

Melkor

Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: Jayne on March 31, 2021, 11:40:23 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 11:07:18 AMI think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.

There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority.

Yes, you have an argument. A point, no. The difference is she makes sense and you don't.

And why ask a question if you already know the answer and won't accept anything to the contrary?
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

drummerboy

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 28, 2021, 05:29:28 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. "Come," they said, "let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth." Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, "If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?
- I'll get with the times when the times are worth getting with

"I like grumpy old cusses.  Hope to live long enough to be one" - John Wayne

Jayne

Quote from: drummerboy on March 31, 2021, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 28, 2021, 05:29:28 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. "Come," they said, "let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth." Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, "If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?

Vetus has a history of using irony which depends on people recognizing that he is saying something too absurd to be a serious claim.  Unfortunately, on the Internet nothing is too absurd to be a serious claim.

Obviously, the Gift of tongues at Pentecost is the reverse of the curse of Babel.  (Much like Christ is the second Adam whose obedience reverses the effects of the disobedience of the first Adam.  And similarly the Blessed Virgin Mary is the second Eve for whom the "ave" reverses "Eva".)  In the New Testament, the more languages one knows, the more able one is to spread the Gospel, so multilingualism is primarily a good thing.  Of course, any good is capable of misuse or perversion, but we do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater".
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

Philip G.

Quote from: Jayne on April 01, 2021, 07:17:17 AM
Quote from: drummerboy on March 31, 2021, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 28, 2021, 05:29:28 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. "Come," they said, "let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth." Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, "If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?

Vetus has a history of using irony which depends on people recognizing that he is saying something too absurd to be a serious claim.  Unfortunately, on the Internet nothing is too absurd to be a serious claim.

Obviously, the Gift of tongues at Pentecost is the reverse of the curse of Babel.  (Much like Christ is the second Adam whose obedience reverses the effects of the disobedience of the first Adam.  And similarly the Blessed Virgin Mary is the second Eve for whom the "ave" reverses "Eva".)  In the New Testament, the more languages one knows, the more able one is to spread the Gospel, so multilingualism is primarily a good thing.  Of course, any good is capable of misuse or perversion, but we do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater".

The tongues of fire at pentecost descended on celibate(albiet potentially/technically "married") men.  They did not descend on spouses.  The bilingualism of the church stems from literacy and the miraculous, not multiculturalism.  A house divided will fall.  Language is and was God's primary vehicle used to divide humanity for the better.  Bilingualism in the family is a division, and that is why we have no catholic spouses as heads of state anywhere in the world.  Catholic spouses are in just as poor a state as clerics are in the modern church.  Just as modern clerics are suffering sexual perversion, modern spouses are suffering a spiritual reproductive perversion.  They think they are shepherds, and know it all's because they can regurgitate some defective authoritative exercise of ages past. 
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Melkor

Quote from: Philip G. on April 01, 2021, 01:15:12 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 01, 2021, 07:17:17 AM
Quote from: drummerboy on March 31, 2021, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 28, 2021, 05:29:28 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. "Come," they said, "let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth." Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, "If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?

Vetus has a history of using irony which depends on people recognizing that he is saying something too absurd to be a serious claim.  Unfortunately, on the Internet nothing is too absurd to be a serious claim.

Obviously, the Gift of tongues at Pentecost is the reverse of the curse of Babel.  (Much like Christ is the second Adam whose obedience reverses the effects of the disobedience of the first Adam.  And similarly the Blessed Virgin Mary is the second Eve for whom the "ave" reverses "Eva".)  In the New Testament, the more languages one knows, the more able one is to spread the Gospel, so multilingualism is primarily a good thing.  Of course, any good is capable of misuse or perversion, but we do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater".

The tongues of fire at pentecost descended on celibate men.  They did not descend on spouses.  The bilingualism of the church stems from literacy, not multiculturalism.  A house divided will fall.  Language is and was God's primary vehicle used to divide humanity for the better.  Bilingualism in the family is a division, and that is why we have no catholic spouses as heads of state anywhere in the world.  Catholic spouses are in just as poor a state as clerics are in the modern church.  Just as modern clerics are suffering sexual perversion, modern spouses are suffering a spiritual reproductive perversion.  They think they are shepherds, and know it all's because they regurgitate some authoritatively defective exercise of ages past. 

You a married man? Didn't think so. Coming from someone who clearly believes God is racist and that it is a grave wrong to teach your kids more than one language, I don't think your opinion on married folks is meaningful.  And the priests who are child abusers and homos are not Catholics, they are a byproduct of the Communist infiltration of the Church. Ever read Memoirs of an anti-apostle?
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Philip G.

Quote from: Melkor on April 01, 2021, 01:23:11 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 01, 2021, 01:15:12 PM
Quote from: Jayne on April 01, 2021, 07:17:17 AM
Quote from: drummerboy on March 31, 2021, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on March 28, 2021, 05:29:28 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. "Come," they said, "let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth." Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, "If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?

Vetus has a history of using irony which depends on people recognizing that he is saying something too absurd to be a serious claim.  Unfortunately, on the Internet nothing is too absurd to be a serious claim.

Obviously, the Gift of tongues at Pentecost is the reverse of the curse of Babel.  (Much like Christ is the second Adam whose obedience reverses the effects of the disobedience of the first Adam.  And similarly the Blessed Virgin Mary is the second Eve for whom the "ave" reverses "Eva".)  In the New Testament, the more languages one knows, the more able one is to spread the Gospel, so multilingualism is primarily a good thing.  Of course, any good is capable of misuse or perversion, but we do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater".

The tongues of fire at pentecost descended on celibate men.  They did not descend on spouses.  The bilingualism of the church stems from literacy, not multiculturalism.  A house divided will fall.  Language is and was God's primary vehicle used to divide humanity for the better.  Bilingualism in the family is a division, and that is why we have no catholic spouses as heads of state anywhere in the world.  Catholic spouses are in just as poor a state as clerics are in the modern church.  Just as modern clerics are suffering sexual perversion, modern spouses are suffering a spiritual reproductive perversion.  They think they are shepherds, and know it all's because they regurgitate some authoritatively defective exercise of ages past. 

You a married man? Didn't think so. Coming from someone who clearly believes God is racist and that it is a grave wrong to teach your kids more than one language, I don't think your opinion on married folks is meaningful.  And the priests who are child abusers and homos are not Catholics, they are a byproduct of the Communist infiltration of the Church. Ever read Memoirs of an anti-apostle?

I hope you get banned for trolling!  You speak lies.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Melkor

Dude go read your posts earlier in this thread, I'm too lazy to dig them up.   ;D
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Melkor

Quote from: Philip G. on March 27, 2021, 05:05:11 PM
Quote from: Melkor on March 27, 2021, 02:27:36 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on March 27, 2021, 11:20:31 AM
Quote from: aquinas138 on March 27, 2021, 07:52:02 AM
There are no downsides. As for the proper age, a child learns completely differently than an adult, so I would say there is no age too young *in a bilingual home.* Children have an amazing capacity to learn even 4-5 languages at a time, but they have to be surrounded by it, not taught it. Children can't really learn language that way until they are older—their brains are just wired differently.

On a tangential note, a very interesting study some years ago indicated that the number one factor in people retaining a second, minority language into adulthood was that their fathers spoke to their mothers in the minority language.

Hooray for multiculturalism!  Not.  There has to be a downside.  If there is no downside, then there is no upside.  And, do not suggest that it is neutral.  Jesus judges nations/cultures against other nations/cultures.  Languages are proximate to that form of judgement.  If you don't agree, I might just have to unleash some LOTR speech of Mordor truth on you.  And, we all know how that enjoys unanimous consent around here. So, being multicultural from a young age is not neutral.  "On the lips of infants and babes, God has perfected praise."  An infant does not speak a language.  As for children, who can speak languages, Jesus said, "suffer the children to come unto me."  That means that children can be sanctified, and children can be cursed regarding language.

Uh. No. Jesus is not racist, he doesn't judge cultures and nations. It's on the individual man, not the nation of the individual.

Wrong.  Matthew 25, 31-46:  "And when the son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.  And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats.  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.  Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.... "

Matthew 10,15 "amen i say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of sodom and gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city".

Sigh. Here y go mate, I am trying to work on my lethargy. It is Lent after all, a time for self improvement.
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Michael Wilson

The O.P. Question was my situation; American parents who moved to El Salvador for business reasons when I was two years old; we had Spanish speaking maids and English parents; there was no "downside" to this situation; in fact in reading the lives of wealthy people in the 19th and 20th C. The practice of hiring nannies who spoke a foreign language by English and American couples for their children was a common practice. The William F. Buckley family had French speaking nannies; some had both French and German speaking nannies.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Heinrich

Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.