Baptism in case of miscarriage

[Roland Deschain2]

But if He was going to grant them heaven, what would be the purpose of limbo? The souls in limbo, if it exists, have already been judged.

How do you know? Maybe God will change His mind- it's not as definitive as Heaven or Hell. We don't know what God has planned after final judgment. We just know (more or less) the order of things up to that point.

Whatever God may have planned after the final Judgement is already determined in the Eternal will of God. It is absolutely impossible for God to "change His mind" as this would indicate a defect in His previous decision or His having come to a deeper realization of a situation which He have previously misjudged.

OK, I will reword it. Perhaps God has plans for some/ all in Limbo that we don't know about.

I share that hope...

[verenaerin]

But if He was going to grant them heaven, what would be the purpose of limbo? The souls in limbo, if it exists, have already been judged.

How do you know? Maybe God will change His mind- it's not as definitive as Heaven or Hell. We don't know what God has planned after final judgment. We just know (more or less) the order of things up to that point.

Whatever God may have planned after the final Judgement is already determined in the Eternal will of God. It is absolutely impossible for God to "change His mind" as this would indicate a defect in His previous decision or His having come to a deeper realization of a situation which He have previously misjudged.

OK, I will reword it. Perhaps God has plans for some/ all in Limbo that we don't know about.

I share that hope...

We must have hope, our babies are there. We might not have met them, but they are ours and have inherited our love and devotion. They are cherished and thought about. I often ask the BVM to let my little ones that I think of them and love them.

[Chestertonian]

But if He was going to grant them heaven, what would be the purpose of limbo? The souls in limbo, if it exists, have already been judged.

How do you know? Maybe God will change His mind- it's not as definitive as Heaven or Hell. We don't know what God has planned after final judgment. We just know (more or less) the order of things up to that point.

Whatever God may have planned after the final Judgement is already determined in the Eternal will of God. It is absolutely impossible for God to "change His mind" as this would indicate a defect in His previous decision or His having come to a deeper realization of a situation which He have previously misjudged.

OK, I will reword it. Perhaps God has plans for some/ all in Limbo that we don't know about.

I share that hope...

We must have hope, our babies are there. We might not have met them, but they are ours and have inherited our love and devotion. They are cherished and thought about. I often ask the BVM to let my little ones that I think of them and love them.

that is a wonderful idea

[Daniel]

OK, I will reword it. Perhaps God has plans for some/ all in Limbo that we don't know about.

Because if we assume that limbo is a part of hell then the souls there are essentially damned.  But I hadn't considered that maybe God has separate plans for hell and limbo after the Final Judgement.

We must have hope, our babies are there. We might not have met them, but they are ours and have inherited our love and devotion. They are cherished and thought about. I often ask the BVM to let my little ones that I think of them and love them.

that is a wonderful idea

Agree'd.

[MilesChristi]

I always figure New heaven and New Earth, the saved get heaven, those in Limbo get Earth.

Enviado desde mi SCH-I545 mediante Tapatalk

[verenaerin]

OK, I will reword it. Perhaps God has plans for some/ all in Limbo that we don't know about.

Because if we assume that limbo is a part of hell then the souls there are essentially damned.  But I hadn't considered that maybe God has separate plans for hell and limbo after the Final Judgement.

I can see how you would come to that conclusion. I am just holding out that that is not the end of the story.

I always figure New heaven and New Earth, the saved get heaven, those in Limbo get Earth.

Enviado desde mi SCH-I545 mediante Tapatalk

I hope not. I don't want to come back down here and I want my babies with me.

[Gardener]

OK, I will reword it. Perhaps God has plans for some/ all in Limbo that we don't know about.

Because if we assume that limbo is a part of hell then the souls there are essentially damned.  But I hadn't considered that maybe God has separate plans for hell and limbo after the Final Judgement.

I can see how you would come to that conclusion. I am just holding out that that is not the end of the story.

I always figure New heaven and New Earth, the saved get heaven, those in Limbo get Earth.

Enviado desde mi SCH-I545 mediante Tapatalk

I hope not. I don't want to come back down here and I want my babies with me.

I'm under the impression that in the consideration of the New Heaven and New Earth we could go anywhere via Resurrected Bodies. Able to move below our level but never above. It doesn't make sense to me to deny those in heaven the ability to visit with those on earth, though I've never done much study on it.

Sacred Scripture and Catholic theology teaches that our glorified resurrected bodies will experience four properties as an outflow of the beatified soul enjoying the vision of God's essence:


1) Impassibility – the glorified body will no longer suffer physical sickness or death, as Saint Paul teaches regarding the glorified body in 1 Corinthians 15:42, "It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption."


2) Subtlety  meaning that we will have a spiritualized nature in the sense of a spiritual body as did our Lord as we learn at 1 Corinthians 15:44: "It is sown a corruptible body, it shall rise a spiritual," i.e. a spirit-like, "body." We see that Christ's glorified body was able to pass through closed doors.


3) Agility – the glorified body will obey the soul with the greatest ease and speed of movement as we read in 1 Corinthians 15:43: "It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power," that is, according to a gloss, "mobile and living." Saint Thomas Aquinas says, "But mobility can only signify agility in movement. Therefore the glorified bodies will be agile." We discern agility our Resurrected Lord's ability to bilocate and travel great distances in an instant.


4) Clarity – the glorified body will be free from any deformity and will be filled with beauty and radiance as we read at Matthew 13:43: "The just shall shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father," and Wisdom 3:7: "The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds." Here clarity refers not being "clear" but to being "bright."


St. Thomas Aquinas at Summa Contra Gentiles, IV, 86 summarized: "thus also will his body be raised to the characteristics of heavenly bodies — it will be lightsome (clarity), incapable of suffering (impassible), without difficulty and labor in movement (agility), and most perfectly perfected by its form (subtlety). For this reason, the Apostle speaks of the bodies of the risen as heavenly, referring not to their nature, but to their glory."

http://taylormarshall.com/2012/10/do-you-know-four-properties-of.html

Mobility only makes sense if you are able to go somewhere. Granted that could mean the infinite expanse of Heaven, but it could also mean the New Earth.

[verenaerin]

OK, I will reword it. Perhaps God has plans for some/ all in Limbo that we don't know about.

Because if we assume that limbo is a part of hell then the souls there are essentially damned.  But I hadn't considered that maybe God has separate plans for hell and limbo after the Final Judgement.

I can see how you would come to that conclusion. I am just holding out that that is not the end of the story.

I always figure New heaven and New Earth, the saved get heaven, those in Limbo get Earth.

Enviado desde mi SCH-I545 mediante Tapatalk

I hope not. I don't want to come back down here and I want my babies with me.

I'm under the impression that in the consideration of the New Heaven and New Earth we could go anywhere via Resurrected Bodies. Able to move below our level but never above. It doesn't make sense to me to deny those in heaven the ability to visit with those on earth, though I've never done much study on it.

Sacred Scripture and Catholic theology teaches that our glorified resurrected bodies will experience four properties as an outflow of the beatified soul enjoying the vision of God's essence:


1) Impassibility – the glorified body will no longer suffer physical sickness or death, as Saint Paul teaches regarding the glorified body in 1 Corinthians 15:42, "It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption."


2) Subtlety  meaning that we will have a spiritualized nature in the sense of a spiritual body as did our Lord as we learn at 1 Corinthians 15:44: "It is sown a corruptible body, it shall rise a spiritual," i.e. a spirit-like, "body." We see that Christ's glorified body was able to pass through closed doors.


3) Agility – the glorified body will obey the soul with the greatest ease and speed of movement as we read in 1 Corinthians 15:43: "It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power," that is, according to a gloss, "mobile and living." Saint Thomas Aquinas says, "But mobility can only signify agility in movement. Therefore the glorified bodies will be agile." We discern agility our Resurrected Lord's ability to bilocate and travel great distances in an instant.


4) Clarity – the glorified body will be free from any deformity and will be filled with beauty and radiance as we read at Matthew 13:43: "The just shall shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father," and Wisdom 3:7: "The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds." Here clarity refers not being "clear" but to being "bright."


St. Thomas Aquinas at Summa Contra Gentiles, IV, 86 summarized: "thus also will his body be raised to the characteristics of heavenly bodies — it will be lightsome (clarity), incapable of suffering (impassible), without difficulty and labor in movement (agility), and most perfectly perfected by its form (subtlety). For this reason, the Apostle speaks of the bodies of the risen as heavenly, referring not to their nature, but to their glory."

http://taylormarshall.com/2012/10/do-you-know-four-properties-of.html

Mobility only makes sense if you are able to go somewhere. Granted that could mean the infinite expanse of Heaven, but it could also mean the New Earth.

I will leave that to you an Aquinas. Right now the only way I imagine Heaven is having all my family close while I take one great big nap.

[Kaesekopf]

But what humanity desires does not correspond with that which is just.

Original sin sets man under the Devil, in his domain, and away from God.

Emotions and feelings won't change that.  This is why we are sent to baptize and convert the nations.

[Gardener]

But what humanity desires does not correspond with that which is just.

Original sin sets man under the Devil, in his domain, and away from God.

Emotions and feelings won't change that.  This is why we are sent to baptize and convert the nations.

So you deny the principles behind Baptism of Desire and the proxy intention of one Justified?

It's not about feelings and it doesn't deny Original Sin.

[Gardener]

Parental Desire

While Baptism is ordinarily required for salvation, the Church recognizes that God is not bound by His sacraments and can still bring about the salvation of the unbaptized.[1] In this vein, the Church has recognized Baptism of blood (dying for the faith) and Baptism of desire (when catechumens die before they actually receive the sacrament, or others who would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity) as having the same effects as sacramental Baptism (cf. Catechism, nos. 1258-60).

The Catechism summarizes the necessity of Baptism in paragraph 1257:

"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments (original emphasis, footnotes omitted)."

Just as an adult who is invincibly ignorant of the need for Baptism may be saved through an implicit Baptism of desire, even more can we hope that an infant who died without Baptism may be saved. St. Bernard of Clairveaux, a 12th-century doctor of the Church, proposed that an unbaptized baby could aspire to heaven because of the faith of his or her parents. This seems consistent with the fact that it is the parents' faith that brings about the child's Baptism and even with the larger reality of the Communion of Saints, through which our faith and prayers can help bring about others' salvation (cf. Lk. 5:18-20; 1 Cor. 7:12-14). And so the way of the Church, beautifully summarized in Catechism, no. 1261, above, is to confidently entrust these little ones to the mercy and loving providence of Our Heavenly Father.

http://www.cuf.org/2004/04/where-do-we-go-from-here-the-concept-of-limbo/

[Kaesekopf]

But what humanity desires does not correspond with that which is just.

Original sin sets man under the Devil, in his domain, and away from God.

Emotions and feelings won't change that.  This is why we are sent to baptize and convert the nations.

So you deny the principles behind Baptism of Desire and the proxy intention of one Justified?

It's not about feelings and it doesn't deny Original Sin.

No, I don't, at least I don't think so.

[Gardener]

But what humanity desires does not correspond with that which is just.

Original sin sets man under the Devil, in his domain, and away from God.

Emotions and feelings won't change that.  This is why we are sent to baptize and convert the nations.

So you deny the principles behind Baptism of Desire and the proxy intention of one Justified?

It's not about feelings and it doesn't deny Original Sin.

No, I don't, at least I don't think so.

The idea of the possibility of a Baptism of Desire by Proxy is simply an integration of the concepts of BOD and the Intentional Proxy.

Its integration of the two concepts' principles is a recognition of Original Sin and is not out of emotion, but recognition of the very command of God; in short, it is a movement in, and desire through, Charity.

It's not a condemned proposition.

[verenaerin]

Parental Desire

While Baptism is ordinarily required for salvation, the Church recognizes that God is not bound by His sacraments and can still bring about the salvation of the unbaptized.[1] In this vein, the Church has recognized Baptism of blood (dying for the faith) and Baptism of desire (when catechumens die before they actually receive the sacrament, or others who would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity) as having the same effects as sacramental Baptism (cf. Catechism, nos. 1258-60).

The Catechism summarizes the necessity of Baptism in paragraph 1257:

"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments (original emphasis, footnotes omitted)."

Just as an adult who is invincibly ignorant of the need for Baptism may be saved through an implicit Baptism of desire, even more can we hope that an infant who died without Baptism may be saved. St. Bernard of Clairveaux, a 12th-century doctor of the Church, proposed that an unbaptized baby could aspire to heaven because of the faith of his or her parents. This seems consistent with the fact that it is the parents' faith that brings about the child's Baptism and even with the larger reality of the Communion of Saints, through which our faith and prayers can help bring about others' salvation (cf. Lk. 5:18-20; 1 Cor. 7:12-14). And so the way of the Church, beautifully summarized in Catechism, no. 1261, above, is to confidently entrust these little ones to the mercy and loving providence of Our Heavenly Father.

http://www.cuf.org/2004/04/where-do-we-go-from-here-the-concept-of-limbo/

This gives me great hope. Thank you for this.

[verenaerin]

But what humanity desires does not correspond with that which is just.

Original sin sets man under the Devil, in his domain, and away from God.

Emotions and feelings won't change that.  This is why we are sent to baptize and convert the nations.

What is just is that we all go to Hell. None of us come even close to what we should be to merit Heaven. We have many instances where God has suspended the laws He has created and performed miracles. And it's not like He only does this for perfect people. We know that miracles have been preformed on ungrateful people- like the 10 lepers.

I know what the laws for us are. I fully understand what original sin is. But we don't know everything. We don't know what God's plan is for limbo. So as a parent, I beg God to bring my lost children to Heaven. I am asking for the suspension of His own law, for the salvation of my innocent babies. He has saved sinners, surely He could consider saving my babies that have personally committed no sin. As a mother, what else am I supposed to do?