Suscipe Domine Traditional Catholic Forum

The Parish Hall => Family Life => Topic started by: Philip G. on March 24, 2021, 10:29:17 PM

Title: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 24, 2021, 10:29:17 PM
I have a friend who was telling me that her niece I think, who is like 2 years old, is being taught english and spanish.  And, it got me thinking, is there a negative to being taught multiple languages before one reaches the age of reason?  Because, you would think in our multicultural society, it would only be a good thing, and it may be.  But, is there a downside to not having a first language?  Is it even possible to not have a first language?  You would think someone who is fluent in both spanish and english upon reaching the age of reason might be considered to not have a first language.  But, I doubt it.  I think one must have a first language.  If it is possible to not have a first language, but instead two, what do you think the downside(s) are?  How do you think it manifests itself?
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on March 24, 2021, 11:31:44 PM
There are hordes of Mexican kids who don't talk the Spanish nor the English very good since they border hop. Dat not good.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 25, 2021, 12:42:16 AM
One downside that I can think of for a person who is fluent from a young age in many languages is that they may not have an accent.  And, I love accents!  And, I think that most people like accents.  I don't think we live in a world that wished accents did not exist.  So, what does an accent imply?  I think an accent either implies a first language, or a dominant language.  So, the next question is, can one who grew up speaking english, but is for whatever reason uprooted and placed in a spanish speaking society, where they learn spanish, and have to speak it daily as the main language, lose their english accent and english dominance?  Meaning, spanish becomes the dominant language for them, and they lose something of their english as a result of lack of use?  It seems reasonable that it could happen. However, I don't think it happens.  Because, I do not know of people who have strong accents, losing their accent over time.  And, the accent implies it seems the dominance of the first language.  Perhaps that is why accents are so likeable/loveable.  An accent implies roots and human nature that cannot be subjected entirely to nurture.  Because, humans are nature and nurture, not one or the other. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: drummerboy on March 25, 2021, 01:10:27 AM
2 years old is very young, I've always thought it was 4-5 at the youngest to start, or that's when the instruction books start at least.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: red solo cup on March 25, 2021, 09:33:51 AM
" A man who speaks two languages has two souls "
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 25, 2021, 12:49:26 PM
" A man who speaks two languages has two souls "

And what does Charlemagne say about the man with multiple wives and many concubines? 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 25, 2021, 12:58:08 PM
2 years old is very young, I've always thought it was 4-5 at the youngest to start, or that's when the instruction books start at least.

I thought she said two, but I could be wrong. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 27, 2021, 12:02:50 AM
How about this; which is more important?  Is it more important to teach your child to read?  Or, is it more important to teach your child a different language/more than one language? 

Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Daniel on March 27, 2021, 07:55:01 AM
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Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Elizabeth.2 on March 27, 2021, 08:09:25 AM

Off topic - I have heard that it's bad for adults to try learning multiple second languages at the same time. Not sure why. I think maybe just because it often backfires, and you don't make as much progress as you would have had you tried studying them each separately. (From my own personal experience, I've also found that sometimes I get confused and mix up the vocabulary between languages, lol)
I'm a tad learning disabled, but when they switched me out of French into Spanish in high school I couldn't cope.  I'd been doing really well in French, and I was motivated, but I lost the French and am way worse in Spanish than I should be.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: aquinas138 on March 27, 2021, 09:52:02 AM
There are no downsides. As for the proper age, a child learns completely differently than an adult, so I would say there is no age too young *in a bilingual home.* Children have an amazing capacity to learn even 4-5 languages at a time, but they have to be surrounded by it, not taught it. Children can't really learn language that way until they are older—their brains are just wired differently.

On a tangential note, a very interesting study some years ago indicated that the number one factor in people retaining a second, minority language into adulthood was that their fathers spoke to their mothers in the minority language.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 27, 2021, 01:20:31 PM
There are no downsides. As for the proper age, a child learns completely differently than an adult, so I would say there is no age too young *in a bilingual home.* Children have an amazing capacity to learn even 4-5 languages at a time, but they have to be surrounded by it, not taught it. Children can't really learn language that way until they are older—their brains are just wired differently.

On a tangential note, a very interesting study some years ago indicated that the number one factor in people retaining a second, minority language into adulthood was that their fathers spoke to their mothers in the minority language.

Hooray for multiculturalism!  Not.  There has to be a downside.  If there is no downside, then there is no upside.  And, do not suggest that it is neutral.  Jesus judges nations/cultures against other nations/cultures.  Languages are proximate to that form of judgement.  If you don't agree, I might just have to unleash some LOTR speech of Mordor truth on you.  And, we all know how that enjoys unanimous consent around here. So, being multicultural from a young age is not neutral.  "On the lips of infants and babes, God has perfected praise."  An infant does not speak a language.  As for children, who can speak languages, Jesus said, "suffer the children to come unto me."  That means that children can be sanctified, and children can be cursed regarding language. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: drummerboy on March 27, 2021, 01:35:55 PM
There are no downsides. As for the proper age, a child learns completely differently than an adult, so I would say there is no age too young *in a bilingual home.* Children have an amazing capacity to learn even 4-5 languages at a time, but they have to be surrounded by it, not taught it. Children can't really learn language that way until they are older—their brains are just wired differently.

On a tangential note, a very interesting study some years ago indicated that the number one factor in people retaining a second, minority language into adulthood was that their fathers spoke to their mothers in the minority language.

Which is why, in former times, well to do parents would hire a language tutor to live with the children, and they were allowed to speak only the language to be learned.  Talk about immersion! 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on March 27, 2021, 02:44:59 PM
There are no downsides. As for the proper age, a child learns completely differently than an adult, so I would say there is no age too young *in a bilingual home.* Children have an amazing capacity to learn even 4-5 languages at a time, but they have to be surrounded by it, not taught it. Children can't really learn language that way until they are older—their brains are just wired differently.

On a tangential note, a very interesting study some years ago indicated that the number one factor in people retaining a second, minority language into adulthood was that their fathers spoke to their mothers in the minority language.

Which is why, in former times, well to do parents would hire a language tutor to live with the children, and they were allowed to speak only the language to be learned.  Talk about immersion!

Right. And John Adams sent his son, the future president, to Russia(pronounced with rhotic /r/). It happens and is good when done right. Not saying that JQA was a good president.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Christina_S on March 27, 2021, 04:14:54 PM
Being fluent in multiple languages does not necessarily equal multiculturalism.

There is a difference between learning another language for, say, academic purposes, and learning it for everyday use in its country/locale of origin. For example, learning Latin simply for the sake of reading canon law is different from learning it because you're a sucker for Roman mythology and love going to toga parties. There are some languages where it's easy to get sucked into some of the negative cultural components: Quebecois French is LOADED with swear words taken from religious imagery. But I think we can distinguish between multiculturalism and just being well-educated.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 27, 2021, 04:27:36 PM
There are no downsides. As for the proper age, a child learns completely differently than an adult, so I would say there is no age too young *in a bilingual home.* Children have an amazing capacity to learn even 4-5 languages at a time, but they have to be surrounded by it, not taught it. Children can't really learn language that way until they are older—their brains are just wired differently.

On a tangential note, a very interesting study some years ago indicated that the number one factor in people retaining a second, minority language into adulthood was that their fathers spoke to their mothers in the minority language.

Hooray for multiculturalism!  Not.  There has to be a downside.  If there is no downside, then there is no upside.  And, do not suggest that it is neutral.  Jesus judges nations/cultures against other nations/cultures.  Languages are proximate to that form of judgement.  If you don't agree, I might just have to unleash some LOTR speech of Mordor truth on you.  And, we all know how that enjoys unanimous consent around here. So, being multicultural from a young age is not neutral.  "On the lips of infants and babes, God has perfected praise."  An infant does not speak a language.  As for children, who can speak languages, Jesus said, "suffer the children to come unto me."  That means that children can be sanctified, and children can be cursed regarding language.

Uh. No. Jesus is not racist, he doesn’t judge cultures and nations. It’s on the individual man, not the nation of the individual.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 27, 2021, 07:03:07 PM
Being fluent in multiple languages does not necessarily equal multiculturalism.

There is a difference between learning another language for, say, academic purposes, and learning it for everyday use in its country/locale of origin. For example, learning Latin simply for the sake of reading canon law is different from learning it because you're a sucker for Roman mythology and love going to toga parties. There are some languages where it's easy to get sucked into some of the negative cultural components: Quebecois French is LOADED with swear words taken from religious imagery. But I think we can distinguish between multiculturalism and just being well-educated.

Latin is a dead language that you do not learn by way of immersion.  You learn it by way of education, which begins with literacy.

Aside from that, multiple languages implies multiculturalism.  Multiculturalism is characteristic of societal crossroads.  And, when it is overemphasized they no longer remain a minority, but become a majority, and then the jews dominate them, and the world by way of them.  The worlds principal crossroad, which is jerusalem, is not only not principally multicultural, it is not even principally cultural, it is principally a zionist religious state.  Promoting multiple languages is promoting multiculturalism.  It might , if genuine, even be promoting feminism, as it in my opinion implies multiple mothers by way of the concept of "mother tongue".  The two worlds that thrive among the bilingual are the gentile-feminist society, and the orthodox/male religious-zionist society.  Neither of those are good for catholics. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 27, 2021, 07:05:11 PM
There are no downsides. As for the proper age, a child learns completely differently than an adult, so I would say there is no age too young *in a bilingual home.* Children have an amazing capacity to learn even 4-5 languages at a time, but they have to be surrounded by it, not taught it. Children can't really learn language that way until they are older—their brains are just wired differently.

On a tangential note, a very interesting study some years ago indicated that the number one factor in people retaining a second, minority language into adulthood was that their fathers spoke to their mothers in the minority language.

Hooray for multiculturalism!  Not.  There has to be a downside.  If there is no downside, then there is no upside.  And, do not suggest that it is neutral.  Jesus judges nations/cultures against other nations/cultures.  Languages are proximate to that form of judgement.  If you don't agree, I might just have to unleash some LOTR speech of Mordor truth on you.  And, we all know how that enjoys unanimous consent around here. So, being multicultural from a young age is not neutral.  "On the lips of infants and babes, God has perfected praise."  An infant does not speak a language.  As for children, who can speak languages, Jesus said, "suffer the children to come unto me."  That means that children can be sanctified, and children can be cursed regarding language.

Uh. No. Jesus is not racist, he doesn’t judge cultures and nations. It’s on the individual man, not the nation of the individual.

Wrong.  Matthew 25, 31-46:  "And when the son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.  And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats.  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.  Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.... "

Matthew 10,15 "amen i say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of sodom and gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city".

Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 28, 2021, 10:37:56 AM
It’s called context. If you were take everything in the Bible literally you would be screwed. And suggesting God has racial prejudices is dangerously close to a little heresy called double  predestination. If God is going to judge me based on the sins of my nation past or present, I quit. What’s even the point of trying? Cmon Calvin, read your Catechism.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on March 28, 2021, 01:20:32 PM
Philip G., how many languages do you speak, read, or understand(by listening)? Just curious. Although I do have a bit of a lifetime of studying English grammar, general linguistics, German, and Spanish, I really can't answer this question in justice. However, if you are really wanting to know the fine minutiae of your OP, then search the terms developmental + psycho + linguistics in some form. You should be able to find scholarly papers wherein you could at least read their abstracts.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 28, 2021, 02:17:32 PM
It’s called context. If you were take everything in the Bible literally you would be screwed. And suggesting God has racial prejudices is dangerously close to a little heresy called double  predestination. If God is going to judge me based on the sins of my nation past or present, I quit. What’s even the point of trying? Cmon Calvin, read your Catechism.

Here is a link to a thread within the last year titled "racism as a sin".  My reply is #123

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=24099.120

To deny that Christ judges nations/peoples/groups in part as a whole is to deny the significance of the general judgement, and it in turn in the process.  If the individual were the only thing that is to be taken into account, we would only require a private/particular judgement, which occurs at our death.   

Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 28, 2021, 02:31:44 PM
Philip G., how many languages do you speak, read, or understand(by listening)? Just curious. Although I do have a bit of a lifetime of studying English grammar, general linguistics, German, and Spanish, I really can't answer this question in justice. However, if you are really wanting to know the fine minutiae of your OP, then search the terms developmental + psycho + linguistics in some form. You should be able to find scholarly papers wherein you could at least read their abstracts.

Curiosity killed the cat.  One does not need to be bilingual in order to have a valid opinion of bilingualism.  And, one does not need to be monolingual in order to have a valid opinion of monolingualism.  By hitting rock bottom, I can know which way is up.

I can see the means of bilingualism as a blessing given a proper end.  Given an improper end, I can see the means of bilingualism as a curse.  This is intended to be more a philosophical conversation as opposed to technical. 

For example, for a missionary, I see it as a blessing, as saint paul indicates, to be able to speak diverse tongues.  But, to be a mother speaking divers tongues does not make the same sense.  Because, it does not take a village to raise a child.  It takes a family.  But, it does take a village, to summon a missionary.

"And, if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it, but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you.  And, whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet."
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 28, 2021, 02:33:10 PM
You mean to tell me on that fateful and terrifying day God will only be judging nations and groups? Nope, He'll be making each individuals' sins and virtues known to all, and the good will be separated from the bad. Oh but read the fine print everyone, if you are French or Chinese or African you are being judged differently from the Irish and the Americans.     
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 28, 2021, 02:41:49 PM
You mean to tell me on that fateful and terrifying day God will only be judging nations and groups? Nope, He'll be making each individuals' sins and virtues known to all, and the good will be separated from the bad. Oh but read the fine print everyone, if you are French or Chinese or African you are being judged differently from the Irish and the Americans.   

You are having quite the difficulty.  On all accounts, you misrepresent what I say, and do not process/grasp what I actually do say.  In this case, I say, and I repeat, "Christ judges nations/peoples in part as a whole."  There is nothing erroneous about that statement.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 28, 2021, 03:09:12 PM
Maybe when you write a response make it clarifying and to the point. You tend to ramble on with vague generalizations. God judges nations in part. Ok, after He judges Joe Biden, He will judge the USA and all its citizens. Got it.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: dymphnaw on March 28, 2021, 03:13:55 PM
This seems silly to me. One of the men at my parish went to the Philippines and got a wife. His daughter speaks English to him but not to her mother. Millions of people are bilingual this way.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on March 28, 2021, 05:05:06 PM
Philip G., how many languages do you speak, read, or understand(by listening)? Just curious. Although I do have a bit of a lifetime of studying English grammar, general linguistics, German, and Spanish, I really can't answer this question in justice. However, if you are really wanting to know the fine minutiae of your OP, then search the terms developmental + psycho + linguistics in some form. You should be able to find scholarly papers wherein you could at least read their abstracts.

Curiosity killed the cat.  One does not need to be bilingual in order to have a valid opinion of bilingualism.  And, one does not need to be monolingual in order to have a valid opinion of monolingualism.  By hitting rock bottom, I can know which way is up.

I can see the means of bilingualism as a blessing given a proper end.  Given an improper end, I can see the means of bilingualism as a curse.  This is intended to be more a philosophical conversation as opposed to technical. 

For example, for a missionary, I see it as a blessing, as saint paul indicates, to be able to speak diverse tongues.  But, to be a mother speaking divers tongues does not make the same sense.  Because, it does not take a village to raise a child.  It takes a family.  But, it does take a village, to summon a missionary.

"And, if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it, but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you.  And, whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet."

Regardless of your linguistic abilities, or lacks thereof(as in your case), you can't expect to be taken seriously if you have no scientific nor practical experience in this domain. One of my German professors waaaay back whenever I was in cowwage spoke German to her kids, who spoke back to her in said language. Dad wasn't fluent in German so that default was English. The oldest attended and graduated herself from Oberlin College, which is a highly selective, albeit nittwittardly liberal institution. Apparently she wasn't retarded in intellect.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on March 28, 2021, 07:29:28 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on March 28, 2021, 08:12:04 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

You just indicted yourself, then? You have fluency in English, along with your mother language, and each of the other Romance languages?
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 28, 2021, 08:46:56 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

Are we seriously at the point where we are questioning whether being fluent in several languages is a bad thing? '...tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel.... different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse. We're not supposed to understand each other.' Really? What a joke. No wonder the Catholic Church has almost zero converts, there's the faggotry in the hierarchy and then there's people saying its not becoming to know two languages. We have become a bunch of weirdos in our stagnant little Trad parishes.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 28, 2021, 10:14:42 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

Are we seriously at the point where we are questioning whether being fluent in several languages is a bad thing? '...tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel.... different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse. We're not supposed to understand each other.' Really? What a joke. No wonder the Catholic Church has almost zero converts, there's the faggotry in the hierarchy and then there's people saying its not becoming to know two languages. We have become a bunch of weirdos in our stagnant little Trad parishes.

And yet it is still better than your lukewarm middle-earth-ism.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 28, 2021, 10:31:55 PM
This seems silly to me. One of the men at my parish went to the Philippines and got a wife. His daughter speaks English to him but not to her mother. Millions of people are bilingual this way.

I hope you are referring to the above type of family scenario as silly, and not this debate.  Since when are we supposed to go find us a spouse from a different culture?  There is a large body of water separating the usa from the Philippines.  We will never be one people.  If God so deemed language fit to divide humanity as he did at babel, how can one not conclude that multiple languages in a family carries with it an element of division?

Jesus said, "a prophet is without honor in his own country".  Flip that on its head.  I will give you a hint.  The answer is not, "a prophet is with honor in a country not his own." 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 28, 2021, 10:56:09 PM
Philip G., how many languages do you speak, read, or understand(by listening)? Just curious. Although I do have a bit of a lifetime of studying English grammar, general linguistics, German, and Spanish, I really can't answer this question in justice. However, if you are really wanting to know the fine minutiae of your OP, then search the terms developmental + psycho + linguistics in some form. You should be able to find scholarly papers wherein you could at least read their abstracts.

Curiosity killed the cat.  One does not need to be bilingual in order to have a valid opinion of bilingualism.  And, one does not need to be monolingual in order to have a valid opinion of monolingualism.  By hitting rock bottom, I can know which way is up.

I can see the means of bilingualism as a blessing given a proper end.  Given an improper end, I can see the means of bilingualism as a curse.  This is intended to be more a philosophical conversation as opposed to technical. 

For example, for a missionary, I see it as a blessing, as saint paul indicates, to be able to speak diverse tongues.  But, to be a mother speaking divers tongues does not make the same sense.  Because, it does not take a village to raise a child.  It takes a family.  But, it does take a village, to summon a missionary.

"And, if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it, but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you.  And, whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet."

Regardless of your linguistic abilities, or lacks thereof(as in your case), you can't expect to be taken seriously if you have no scientific nor practical experience in this domain. One of my German professors waaaay back whenever I was in cowwage spoke German to her kids, who spoke back to her in said language. Dad wasn't fluent in German so that default was English. The oldest attended and graduated herself from Oberlin College, which is a highly selective, albeit nittwittardly liberal institution. Apparently she wasn't retarded in intellect.

Please, point out where I in even the slightest way suggested that bilingualism leads to mental retardation? 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 29, 2021, 09:51:30 AM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

Are we seriously at the point where we are questioning whether being fluent in several languages is a bad thing? '...tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel.... different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse. We're not supposed to understand each other.' Really? What a joke. No wonder the Catholic Church has almost zero converts, there's the faggotry in the hierarchy and then there's people saying its not becoming to know two languages. We have become a bunch of weirdos in our stagnant little Trad parishes.

And yet it is still better than your lukewarm middle-earth-ism.

Lol you are a snide little guy, aren't you? Pettiness is not a very manly trait, nor is refusing to admit you are wrong when confronted with a fact that contradicts your erroneous opinions.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on March 29, 2021, 10:46:00 AM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

Are we seriously at the point where we are questioning whether being fluent in several languages is a bad thing? '...tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel.... different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse. We're not supposed to understand each other.' Really? What a joke. No wonder the Catholic Church has almost zero converts, there's the faggotry in the hierarchy and then there's people saying its not becoming to know two languages. We have become a bunch of weirdos in our stagnant little Trad parishes.

Person you are replying to is a muslim.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 29, 2021, 10:53:37 AM
@Heinrich that explains a lot. ;)
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on March 29, 2021, 12:09:39 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

Are we seriously at the point where we are questioning whether being fluent in several languages is a bad thing? '...tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel.... different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse. We're not supposed to understand each other.' Really? What a joke. No wonder the Catholic Church has almost zero converts, there's the faggotry in the hierarchy and then there's people saying its not becoming to know two languages. We have become a bunch of weirdos in our stagnant little Trad parishes.

Person you are replying to is a muslim.

The person he's replying to knows how to use irony.

An art that is sadly lost on my interlocutor.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on March 29, 2021, 07:20:47 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

Are we seriously at the point where we are questioning whether being fluent in several languages is a bad thing? '...tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel.... different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse. We're not supposed to understand each other.' Really? What a joke. No wonder the Catholic Church has almost zero converts, there's the faggotry in the hierarchy and then there's people saying its not becoming to know two languages. We have become a bunch of weirdos in our stagnant little Trad parishes.

Person you are replying to is a muslim.

The person he's replying to knows how to use irony.

An art that is sadly lost on my interlocutor.

Yer right. I am dumb.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Christina_S on March 30, 2021, 11:04:00 AM
Being fluent in multiple languages does not necessarily equal multiculturalism.

There is a difference between learning another language for, say, academic purposes, and learning it for everyday use in its country/locale of origin. For example, learning Latin simply for the sake of reading canon law is different from learning it because you're a sucker for Roman mythology and love going to toga parties. There are some languages where it's easy to get sucked into some of the negative cultural components: Quebecois French is LOADED with swear words taken from religious imagery. But I think we can distinguish between multiculturalism and just being well-educated.

Latin is a dead language that you do not learn by way of immersion.  You learn it by way of education, which begins with literacy.

Aside from that, multiple languages implies multiculturalism.
 
::)
Multiculturalism is characteristic of societal crossroads.  And, when it is overemphasized they no longer remain a minority, but become a majority, and then the jews dominate them, and the world by way of them.  The worlds principal crossroad, which is jerusalem, is not only not principally multicultural, it is not even principally cultural, it is principally a zionist religious state.
Ah, so you fear the Jews. Got it. 
Promoting multiple languages is promoting multiculturalism.  It might , if genuine, even be promoting feminism, as it in my opinion implies multiple mothers by way of the concept of "mother tongue".

... I don't believe it does. Your mother tongue is different from the secondary or tertiary language that one speaks. Your mother tongue can never be replaced. Even if you speak two languages from childhood, one of them will likely take precedence. You will probably be more comfortable thinking and working in one over the other. My husband grew up speaking Flemish and English, but Flemish was used more frequently with his family, so he considers that his mother tongue.
The two worlds that thrive among the bilingual are the gentile-feminist society, and the orthodox/male religious-zionist society.  Neither of those are good for catholics.

Hmm, so all the Catholic scholars who spoke multiple languages are gentile-feminists or religious-Zionists? Interesting.

-St. Jerome, who would have needed at least Hebrew, Greek, and Latin for his translation of Holy Scripture.

-Cardinal Turkson, who speaks English, Fante, French, Italian, German, and Hebrew, in addition to understanding Latin and Greek.

-Cardinal Mezzofanti, who was familiar with between 30 and 72 languages ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Caspar_Mezzofanti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Caspar_Mezzofanti) )

-Just about any cleric who was well educated prior to the 20th century would have been familiar with Latin and at least another couple languages.

-JRR Tolkien was comfortable working in Latin, French, German, Middle English, Old English, Finnish, Gothic, Greek, Italian, Old Norse, Spanish, Welsh, and Medieval Welsh. He was also familiar with Danish, Dutch, Lombardic, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Swedish and older forms of modern Germanic and Slavonic languages.

-Apostles on Pentecost, anyone?
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 30, 2021, 11:13:03 AM
Fun fact, Tolkien translated Beowulf, quite the linguistic feat. Oh but he spoke multiple languages, my bad for mentioning him on a Catholic forum. ::) Guess I have to throw out my JRR books. Lol.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 30, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
Being fluent in multiple languages does not necessarily equal multiculturalism.

There is a difference between learning another language for, say, academic purposes, and learning it for everyday use in its country/locale of origin. For example, learning Latin simply for the sake of reading canon law is different from learning it because you're a sucker for Roman mythology and love going to toga parties. There are some languages where it's easy to get sucked into some of the negative cultural components: Quebecois French is LOADED with swear words taken from religious imagery. But I think we can distinguish between multiculturalism and just being well-educated.

Latin is a dead language that you do not learn by way of immersion.  You learn it by way of education, which begins with literacy.

Aside from that, multiple languages implies multiculturalism.
 
::)
Multiculturalism is characteristic of societal crossroads.  And, when it is overemphasized they no longer remain a minority, but become a majority, and then the jews dominate them, and the world by way of them.  The worlds principal crossroad, which is jerusalem, is not only not principally multicultural, it is not even principally cultural, it is principally a zionist religious state.
Ah, so you fear the Jews. Got it. 
Promoting multiple languages is promoting multiculturalism.  It might , if genuine, even be promoting feminism, as it in my opinion implies multiple mothers by way of the concept of "mother tongue".

... I don't believe it does. Your mother tongue is different from the secondary or tertiary language that one speaks. Your mother tongue can never be replaced. Even if you speak two languages from childhood, one of them will likely take precedence. You will probably be more comfortable thinking and working in one over the other. My husband grew up speaking Flemish and English, but Flemish was used more frequently with his family, so he considers that his mother tongue.
The two worlds that thrive among the bilingual are the gentile-feminist society, and the orthodox/male religious-zionist society.  Neither of those are good for catholics.

Hmm, so all the Catholic scholars who spoke multiple languages are gentile-feminists or religious-Zionists? Interesting.

-St. Jerome, who would have needed at least Hebrew, Greek, and Latin for his translation of Holy Scripture.

-Cardinal Turkson, who speaks English, Fante, French, Italian, German, and Hebrew, in addition to understanding Latin and Greek.

-Cardinal Mezzofanti, who was familiar with between 30 and 72 languages ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Caspar_Mezzofanti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Caspar_Mezzofanti) )

-Just about any cleric who was well educated prior to the 20th century would have been familiar with Latin and at least another couple languages.

-JRR Tolkien was comfortable working in Latin, French, German, Middle English, Old English, Finnish, Gothic, Greek, Italian, Old Norse, Spanish, Welsh, and Medieval Welsh. He was also familiar with Danish, Dutch, Lombardic, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Swedish and older forms of modern Germanic and Slavonic languages.

-Apostles on Pentecost, anyone?
Please don't derail the thread.  The context for my comments is the subject of this thread is and has always been bilingualism from an early age.  Without specifying, it has next to nothing to do with biblical translators.  I already said that it makes plenty of sense for a cleric to know many languages.  And, I already hinted at literacy being the big winner in this debate.  But, the difference regarding clerics is that God calls men to the priesthood.  It is not the parents who choose the priest.  The parents emphasizing many languages in their children seemingly suggests that the honor belongs to them, the parents.  When, in fact the honor of the priest belongs to Christ.  There is a reason the tongues of fire came after Pentecost, and in a miraculous fashion.  Jesus selected fishermen to be the apostles, and the church traditionally has fostered vocations from among the poor.  The only way bilingualism can creep into that scenario is by way of multiculturalism.  And, is not traditional.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 30, 2021, 10:17:26 PM

Ah, so you fear the Jews. Got it. 


Mt. 16,6 : "Who said to them, take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees and sadducees."

The definition of beware is - be cautious and alert to the dangers of.

Thank you for your understanding.

Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Jayne on March 31, 2021, 09:56:49 AM
I majored in linguistics as an undergrad and did a paper on bilingualism.  This was back in the 80s and there was already a lot of research on the topic at that time.  I know that this is a topic of great interest and that research continues, although I have not followed it closely.  Rather than baselessly speculating and guessing, those interested in the topic should look at this research. 

Here is a relatively recent article, written for non-specialists, that gives an overview of what is known at this time:  http://www.hanen.org/Helpful-Info/Articles/Bilingualism-in-Young-Children--Separating-Fact-fr.aspx (http://www.hanen.org/Helpful-Info/Articles/Bilingualism-in-Young-Children--Separating-Fact-fr.aspx) 

tl;dr version - At this point, there is no known downside of being fluent in multiple languages from a young age. 

As for making a moral judgment about this or claiming it is untraditional, that is just silly.  It is obvious morally neutral and has always occurred in circumstances in which children have been sufficiently exposed to multiple languages.

There is a close link between language and culture.  Helping children to learn the languages of their ancestors gives them a sense of connection to their cultural and religious heritage.  It has the potential to increase the value that the child places on tradition. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Jayne on March 31, 2021, 10:11:17 AM
Being fluent in multiple languages does not necessarily equal multiculturalism.

Exactly.  The Church has always taught the importance of marrying within the faith, but never taught that we have any obligation to marry people of the same nationality.  The very name "Catholic" means universal and refers, in part, to the fact that the Church transcends ethnic and linguistic boundaries.  It is inevitable that there will situations in which two Catholics, with different mother tongues, marry and raise children.  It is perfectly natural and usually desirable that such children learn the languages of both parents.

This is in no way opposed to Catholicism.  On the contrary, it reflects the nature of the Church herself.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 01:07:18 PM
Our Lord said "If the eye is sound, the whole body is sound".  What does that mean?  Well, it means many things not contradictory.  But, is it possibly a partial reference or acknowledgment that when people speak/communicate, they move more than just their tongue?  They also move their body in certain ways unique to the language/culture they are communicating in.  I think it is.  It may in fact be a threefold acknowledgement of human communication, in the form of the eye(the window of the soul), the tongue(sound), and the whole body(signs). 

Let us consider the head shake for example.  The head shake(Side to side) in the Indian subcontinent, the Middle East, Africa, Southeast Asia, Europe, South America, North America and Australia means no or something disagreeable.  But in some Southeastern European areas such as Greece and southern Albania, it is used for the opposite purpose, to indicate affirmation, meaning "yes".  In those regions, nodding in fact means "no" as well, the complete reverse of most other places in the world. We as humans have muscle memory.  Good luck wrestling with that phenomenon. 

The tongue can do many things, including getting us into trouble.  But, to expect more than just the tongue to be able to naturalize and manifest the variance of body language that is evident among various languages/cultures, is presumptuous.  Just as old people can begin to doubt their ability to nurture their ways/behavior("can't teach an old dog new tricks"), likewise, young people can begin to doubt their nature if they are tasked to nurture it too extensively.  I think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

However, these two phenomenon are not equal.  The bible says, "even if your father lose his mind, grieve him not".  The bible doesn't say, "if your male child begins to think he is a female, and vice versa, grieve them not".  This example is obviously the extreme and far from learning a language it would seem.  But, it is the extreme consequence of doubting or rejecting the importance of nature, which makes the example relevant.  And, in our day and age, we cannot dismiss this extreme as fiction, it is happening all around us, just as multiculturalism is becoming the new normal.  "Diverthity ith our thtrength" screams the libtard.

The other reason the phenomenon are not equal is because children can be corrected.  The bible admonishes us to do so.  The bible says, bow the necks of your children from an early age, meaning humble them/put them in their place.  But, with the elderly, we cannot do so.  Why this is important is because the salvation of the soul is the goal of our life.  If we try to correct the elderly, it could embitter them, and they could lose their soul.  Where, with the child, their soul is not in danger so long as we raise them properly. 
 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Jayne on March 31, 2021, 01:40:23 PM
  I think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on March 31, 2021, 04:39:59 PM
  I think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.

There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Jayne on March 31, 2021, 05:07:20 PM
There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority.

While studying this subject at the undergraduate level does not make me an expert, it does mean that I have a basic knowledge of it.  I certainly know enough to tell that you have no idea what you are talking about.  You do not have an argument.  You are throwing together a bunch of confused ideas in a completely illogical manner.  You are not making sense.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on March 31, 2021, 08:50:01 PM
  I think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.

There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority.

*between you and me
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Christina_S on March 31, 2021, 10:23:18 PM
  I think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.

There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority.

*between you and me
Yeah, if you're having trouble with English, I can see why you might bash people who speak multiple languages /sarc.  ::)

In all seriousness though, Jayne is right. This is a subjective, baseless opinion masquerading as fact. That is not Catholic. What is your goal in arguing this?
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on March 31, 2021, 10:43:52 PM
  I think that multilingualism from an early age, if not for a good/necessary reason, will strain the natural aspect of the human, just as the nurture aspect gets strained in the elderly. 

What you think about this appears to have no relation to the vast body of research on the subject.  It is your uninformed opinion mixed with some irrelevant, wildly interpreted Scripture passages.  Your views have no apparent connection to linguistics nor to Church teaching.

The underlying assumption behind your posts seems to be that it is legitimate to express subjective opinions with no attempt to ground them in objective facts.  This assumption is a manifestation of one of the most pernicious aspects of modernism.  This extreme subjectivism is fundamentally opposed to traditional Catholic thought.  Catholicism is about reality, not baseless opinions.

There is a difference between you and I.  I have an argument, and you don't have authority.

Yes, you have an argument. A point, no. The difference is she makes sense and you don’t.

And why ask a question if you already know the answer and won’t accept anything to the contrary?
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: drummerboy on April 01, 2021, 01:00:21 AM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Jayne on April 01, 2021, 09:17:17 AM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?

Vetus has a history of using irony which depends on people recognizing that he is saying something too absurd to be a serious claim.  Unfortunately, on the Internet nothing is too absurd to be a serious claim.

Obviously, the Gift of tongues at Pentecost is the reverse of the curse of Babel.  (Much like Christ is the second Adam whose obedience reverses the effects of the disobedience of the first Adam.  And similarly the Blessed Virgin Mary is the second Eve for whom the "ave" reverses "Eva".)  In the New Testament, the more languages one knows, the more able one is to spread the Gospel, so multilingualism is primarily a good thing.  Of course, any good is capable of misuse or perversion, but we do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater".
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 01, 2021, 03:15:12 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?

Vetus has a history of using irony which depends on people recognizing that he is saying something too absurd to be a serious claim.  Unfortunately, on the Internet nothing is too absurd to be a serious claim.

Obviously, the Gift of tongues at Pentecost is the reverse of the curse of Babel.  (Much like Christ is the second Adam whose obedience reverses the effects of the disobedience of the first Adam.  And similarly the Blessed Virgin Mary is the second Eve for whom the "ave" reverses "Eva".)  In the New Testament, the more languages one knows, the more able one is to spread the Gospel, so multilingualism is primarily a good thing.  Of course, any good is capable of misuse or perversion, but we do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater".

The tongues of fire at pentecost descended on celibate(albiet potentially/technically "married") men.  They did not descend on spouses.  The bilingualism of the church stems from literacy and the miraculous, not multiculturalism.  A house divided will fall.  Language is and was God's primary vehicle used to divide humanity for the better.  Bilingualism in the family is a division, and that is why we have no catholic spouses as heads of state anywhere in the world.  Catholic spouses are in just as poor a state as clerics are in the modern church.  Just as modern clerics are suffering sexual perversion, modern spouses are suffering a spiritual reproductive perversion.  They think they are shepherds, and know it all's because they can regurgitate some defective authoritative exercise of ages past. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on April 01, 2021, 03:23:11 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?

Vetus has a history of using irony which depends on people recognizing that he is saying something too absurd to be a serious claim.  Unfortunately, on the Internet nothing is too absurd to be a serious claim.

Obviously, the Gift of tongues at Pentecost is the reverse of the curse of Babel.  (Much like Christ is the second Adam whose obedience reverses the effects of the disobedience of the first Adam.  And similarly the Blessed Virgin Mary is the second Eve for whom the "ave" reverses "Eva".)  In the New Testament, the more languages one knows, the more able one is to spread the Gospel, so multilingualism is primarily a good thing.  Of course, any good is capable of misuse or perversion, but we do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater".

The tongues of fire at pentecost descended on celibate men.  They did not descend on spouses.  The bilingualism of the church stems from literacy, not multiculturalism.  A house divided will fall.  Language is and was God's primary vehicle used to divide humanity for the better.  Bilingualism in the family is a division, and that is why we have no catholic spouses as heads of state anywhere in the world.  Catholic spouses are in just as poor a state as clerics are in the modern church.  Just as modern clerics are suffering sexual perversion, modern spouses are suffering a spiritual reproductive perversion.  They think they are shepherds, and know it all's because they regurgitate some authoritatively defective exercise of ages past. 

You a married man? Didn’t think so. Coming from someone who clearly believes God is racist and that it is a grave wrong to teach your kids more than one language, I don’t think your opinion on married folks is meaningful.  And the priests who are child abusers and homos are not Catholics, they are a byproduct of the Communist infiltration of the Church. Ever read Memoirs of an anti-apostle?
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 01, 2021, 03:25:21 PM
Philip might be onto something. Being fluent in multiple languages is tantamount to defying God's punishment at Babel. The fact that the different races of men speak different languages is an unmistakable curse from heaven. We're not supposed to understand each other.

Being multilingual, or a polyglot, does not seem proper or something we should encourage a believer to become.

Now the whole world had one language and a common form of speech. And as people journeyed eastward, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” So they used brick instead of stone, and tar instead of mortar. “Come,” they said, “let us build for ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens, that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of all the earth.” Then the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men were building. And the LORD said, “If they have begun to do this as one people speaking the same language, then nothing they devise will be beyond them. Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” So the LORD scattered them from there over the face of all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it is called Babel, for there the LORD confused the language of the whole world, and from that place the LORD scattered them over the face of all the earth. (Gen. 11:1-8)

As Jesus Himself would have been familiar with Hebrew and Greek in addition to Aramaic, He therefore defied His Father's will?

Vetus has a history of using irony which depends on people recognizing that he is saying something too absurd to be a serious claim.  Unfortunately, on the Internet nothing is too absurd to be a serious claim.

Obviously, the Gift of tongues at Pentecost is the reverse of the curse of Babel.  (Much like Christ is the second Adam whose obedience reverses the effects of the disobedience of the first Adam.  And similarly the Blessed Virgin Mary is the second Eve for whom the "ave" reverses "Eva".)  In the New Testament, the more languages one knows, the more able one is to spread the Gospel, so multilingualism is primarily a good thing.  Of course, any good is capable of misuse or perversion, but we do not "throw out the baby with the bathwater".

The tongues of fire at pentecost descended on celibate men.  They did not descend on spouses.  The bilingualism of the church stems from literacy, not multiculturalism.  A house divided will fall.  Language is and was God's primary vehicle used to divide humanity for the better.  Bilingualism in the family is a division, and that is why we have no catholic spouses as heads of state anywhere in the world.  Catholic spouses are in just as poor a state as clerics are in the modern church.  Just as modern clerics are suffering sexual perversion, modern spouses are suffering a spiritual reproductive perversion.  They think they are shepherds, and know it all's because they regurgitate some authoritatively defective exercise of ages past. 

You a married man? Didn’t think so. Coming from someone who clearly believes God is racist and that it is a grave wrong to teach your kids more than one language, I don’t think your opinion on married folks is meaningful.  And the priests who are child abusers and homos are not Catholics, they are a byproduct of the Communist infiltration of the Church. Ever read Memoirs of an anti-apostle?

I hope you get banned for trolling!  You speak lies.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on April 01, 2021, 03:28:38 PM
Dude go read your posts earlier in this thread, I’m too lazy to dig them up.   ;D
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on April 01, 2021, 03:33:03 PM
There are no downsides. As for the proper age, a child learns completely differently than an adult, so I would say there is no age too young *in a bilingual home.* Children have an amazing capacity to learn even 4-5 languages at a time, but they have to be surrounded by it, not taught it. Children can't really learn language that way until they are older—their brains are just wired differently.

On a tangential note, a very interesting study some years ago indicated that the number one factor in people retaining a second, minority language into adulthood was that their fathers spoke to their mothers in the minority language.

Hooray for multiculturalism!  Not.  There has to be a downside.  If there is no downside, then there is no upside.  And, do not suggest that it is neutral.  Jesus judges nations/cultures against other nations/cultures.  Languages are proximate to that form of judgement.  If you don't agree, I might just have to unleash some LOTR speech of Mordor truth on you.  And, we all know how that enjoys unanimous consent around here. So, being multicultural from a young age is not neutral.  "On the lips of infants and babes, God has perfected praise."  An infant does not speak a language.  As for children, who can speak languages, Jesus said, "suffer the children to come unto me."  That means that children can be sanctified, and children can be cursed regarding language.

Uh. No. Jesus is not racist, he doesn’t judge cultures and nations. It’s on the individual man, not the nation of the individual.

Wrong.  Matthew 25, 31-46:  "And when the son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.  And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats.  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.  Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.... "

Matthew 10,15 "amen i say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of sodom and gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city".

Sigh. Here y go mate, I am trying to work on my lethargy. It is Lent after all, a time for self improvement.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Michael Wilson on April 04, 2021, 09:51:08 PM
The O.P. Question was my situation; American parents who moved to El Salvador for business reasons when I was two years old; we had Spanish speaking maids and English parents; there was no "downside" to this situation; in fact in reading the lives of wealthy people in the 19th and 20th C. The practice of hiring nannies who spoke a foreign language by English and American couples for their children was a common practice. The William F. Buckley family had French speaking nannies; some had both French and German speaking nannies.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on April 05, 2021, 07:14:16 PM
some had both French and German speaking nannies.

Trčs gut!
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 06, 2021, 06:22:11 PM
After some thought, I am quite convinced that women should be careful about learning multiple languages, because there are indeed downsides.  And, it is certainly my opinion that women should not become polyglots.  And, here is why.  In the garden of paradise, before the fall, Adam communicated with God, and Adam communicated with Eve.  Much of Adam's communication with God occurred before Eve was even created.  All the rules regarding the Tree of knowledge occurred before Eve was created.  This means that Adam made use of one language, for when we communicate with God, we do so perfectly through prayer, which is communication by way of the spirit.  Because, God is spirit. 

Eve on the other hand, she communicated with Adam, and she communicated with the serpent, the most subtle of all the beasts.  This represents the maximum capability of women regarding communication.  Eve maxed out her communicative skills by communicating with the serpent.  And, the result was bad.  It follows then, that the more languages women learn, the more they are maxing out their carnal communicative potential.  One might think this is good, for obviously women have the capacity to do so.  But, post fall, this is not a good thing.  The serpent was punished by having to lick the dust all its days, pun intended, and Eve was punished with pain in childbirth.  Why is Eve's punishment significant in this regard?  Who was it that named John the baptist?  It was his father.  Post Fall, it is to be the father to speak the first words to the child, in the form of their name, lest the woman, in her current state of pain, instead of blessing the child with a good name, curse the child as a result of her labors, by giving them a bad name. 

No longer is woman to max out her communicative potential as she did in the garden with the serpent.  Woman is to max out her communicative potential in the formation of her children.  Post fall, the reverse for women, becomes the great potential.  The greatest thing a mother can do for her children is to communicate with them better than any other, and this occurs in the form of one tongue, the mother tongue. 

What about women who do not get married and become mothers you might say?  Eve has one curse as a result of the Fall, she does not have two.  She does however have many natural characteristics that remind her of such vocation, that of Mother, that she cannot avoid or do away with.  And, last I checked, this does not make women happy.  Just as first words, such as the naming of a child, are important, last words, are important.  There is a saying, "it is not over until the fat lady sings". 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on April 06, 2021, 06:33:32 PM
...This represents the maximum capability of women regarding communication. Eve maxed out her communicative skills by communicating with the serpent. And, the result was bad...

You have certainly maxed out your reasoning skills with this post.

The result is bad. You need help, Philip.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Jayne on April 06, 2021, 06:38:30 PM
Thanks to Philip's timely warning, I am going to take Snake off of my list of languages that I want to learn.  :)
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Heinrich on April 06, 2021, 06:46:33 PM
...This represents the maximum capability of women regarding communication. Eve maxed out her communicative skills by communicating with the serpent. And, the result was bad...

You have certainly maxed out your reasoning skills with this post.

The result is bad. You need help, Philip.

Maybe he is using irony.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Melkor on April 06, 2021, 07:57:06 PM
Thanks to Philip's timely warning, I am going to take Snake off of my list of languages that I want to learn.  :)

Lol! I think Philip doesn’t like reptiles very much, first his anti-dragon rant and now his snake hatred.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Jayne on April 06, 2021, 08:47:11 PM
Thanks to Philip's timely warning, I am going to take Snake off of my list of languages that I want to learn.  :)

Lol! I think Philip doesn’t like reptiles very much, first his anti-dragon rant and now his snake hatred.

To be fair, all of us ought to hate that particular snake.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 06, 2021, 08:59:14 PM
...This represents the maximum capability of women regarding communication. Eve maxed out her communicative skills by communicating with the serpent. And, the result was bad...

You have certainly maxed out your reasoning skills with this post.

The result is bad. You need help, Philip.

Your criticism of that statement is no different from those who criticize a man who believes he can communicate with God through a Catholic prayer.  Thanks to Jesus, such communication for Catholics is common.  For Muslims, not so much.   

Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 06, 2021, 09:49:29 PM
...This represents the maximum capability of women regarding communication. Eve maxed out her communicative skills by communicating with the serpent. And, the result was bad...

You have certainly maxed out your reasoning skills with this post.

The result is bad. You need help, Philip.

Maybe he is using irony.

Yea, St. Francis didn't communicate with the hungry wolf.  St. Anthony didn't preach to the fishes.  Not reasonable.  Tell me where Jesus speaks of reason in the gospels.  Jesus speaks of faith. 

I can understand the body language of an animal by looking at its tail, as opposed to its eye(s).  If you ever wonder why the phrase "eye of the tiger" is significant, it is because, if you are looking into the eye of the tiger, you are dead.  The serpent, it doesn't have a tail.  It is a like type tail.  So, how might one read the body language of such a subtle creature?  My guess is the tongue.  And, that tongue, like the "smooth honey like throat/speech of the harlot", is not so smooth anymore as a result of its curse.  The serpent now has difficulty speaking.  Perhaps that is the last end of the polyglot.  The polyglot can speak to all people, but cannot speak to God.  It would be ironic.  It might even be (partially)symbolic of the forked nature of the serpents tongue. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on April 07, 2021, 11:39:26 AM
...This represents the maximum capability of women regarding communication. Eve maxed out her communicative skills by communicating with the serpent. And, the result was bad...

You have certainly maxed out your reasoning skills with this post.

The result is bad. You need help, Philip.

Your criticism of that statement is no different from those who criticize a man who believes he can communicate with God through a Catholic prayer.  Thanks to Jesus, such communication for Catholics is common.  For Muslims, not so much.

I say this with all due respect but it seems like your mental health is degenerating, Philip.

We all can observe that your posts are becoming more incoherent and fantastical as time goes by. This latest rant against women speaking multiple languages is, frankly, borderline insane. You also look angry and resentful. It's not a good place to be in.

In all honesty, you should seek help.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Gardener on April 07, 2021, 12:26:57 PM
An apocryphal story of theological monolingualism:

Hugo Rahner, SJ was once asked what he thought of his brother Karl Rahner, SJ's new book. Hugo replied, "I look forward to when he has it translated into German so I can read it." Karl wrote in German.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 07, 2021, 01:49:42 PM
An apocryphal story of theological monolingualism:

Hugo Rahner, SJ was once asked what he thought of his brother Karl Rahner, SJ's new book. Hugo replied, "I look forward to when he has it translated into German so I can read it." Karl wrote in German.

Of false prophets, Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them".
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 08, 2021, 02:05:10 AM
This latest rant against women speaking multiple languages is, frankly, borderline insane.

It is no rant.  The same principles can be applied to men, but in a different manner.  Which, I will demonstrate.  The story would also imply that men should not dabble/learn about/read the texts of the worlds false religions without a sufficient reason.  Might that be you Vetus Ordo, mr. hopeful fatalist?  Is that why you are so triggered?  I have a catechism by Fr. Cogan that states that such pursuit of religious knowledge is a mortal sin.  The exact words are, "reading non catholic bibles or books about religion". "And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens.  For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard."  Searching out all the words spoken to God by fallen man is a perilous endeavor.  Just as women should not become polyglots, men should not become religious pluralists. 

Perhaps this is why I am so triggered by sedevecantists.  I have studied sedevacantism in depth.  By the mercy of God, I never confessed the doctrine, but I was fluent in its regard, and I still am to my satisfaction, but now only choose to speak with a sharp hostility towards.  Because, learning about it so extensively, took a toll on me.  It was not a one way street.  I was a home aloner for a few years as a result, not because I believed that the pope was not the pope, or that the sacraments were invalid, but because the 1962 liturgy/diocesan TLM was not pure enough like the pure pre bugnini liturgy, and the like.  Geography did play a significant factor.  But, it is no excuse.  Let's all have a good laugh, or a good cry.  Stick with the archbishop if you want to learn about tradition.  I thank God I survived that trial.  If I am to be stretched wide, it will certainly not be for the sake of some personality cult, which they, that being all those non una cum papa Francesco usurper liturgies, are in my humble opinion.  And, if the 1962 folks are not careful, they will share the same fate.  The gold, fine lace, and marble cathedral TLM and the hand-holding guitar-playing novus ordo mass are partners in crime.  Whether we like it or not, the source of our salvation, Jesus Christ, is caught in the middle of that chaos.  For the sake of your body, do not add to it.  For the sake of your soul, mitigate it.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 08, 2021, 04:44:37 PM
I listened to this new sensus fidelium sermon this morning, start listening at minute 9:00 to minute 20:00, and it spoke about gnosticism in our time, with one form relevant to us being the fantasy novel.  But, the main take away is that the gnostic becomes gnostic from dabbling in all religions/belief systems, picking and choosing unto its final end, which is claimed secret knowledge.  So, it may very well be that, translated into the linguistic sphere of my adam and eve example/argument, the polyglot's end may be a claimed secret language.  What might that secret language be?  Might it be serpent tongue?  Is that what they are after?  This is all the more reason for women to steer well clear of polyglot-ism.  God said he will put enmity between the woman and the serpent.  At the root of gnosticism, may be an enmity of man towards God.  At the root of polyglot-ism may be an enmity towards creation.  And, I think a pertinent question arises.  Do you believe the story of Adam and Eve?  In our time, scripture appears to take a back seat to tradition.  Outside of time, regarding the garden of paradise, tradition takes a backseat to scripture.  It is a dogma that Christ, suffered, died, and rose from the dead.  The gnostic is always promoting a secret door.  Is there a secret password in order to open the secret door?  Dabbling and babbling are not unrelated.  John 10:1 "Amen amen I say to you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same is a thief and a robber.... john 10:9 I am the door...".

Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Vetus Ordo on April 08, 2021, 05:54:59 PM
This latest rant against women speaking multiple languages is, frankly, borderline insane.

It is no rant.  The same principles can be applied to men, but in a different manner.  Which, I will demonstrate.  The story would also imply that men should not dabble/learn about/read the texts of the worlds false religions without a sufficient reason.  Might that be you Vetus Ordo, mr. hopeful fatalist?  Is that why you are so triggered? (...)

No, Philip.

What happens is that I and other people on this forum are concerned for your mental health. Please see a professional.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Philip G. on April 08, 2021, 09:44:45 PM
This latest rant against women speaking multiple languages is, frankly, borderline insane.

It is no rant.  The same principles can be applied to men, but in a different manner.  Which, I will demonstrate.  The story would also imply that men should not dabble/learn about/read the texts of the worlds false religions without a sufficient reason.  Might that be you Vetus Ordo, mr. hopeful fatalist?  Is that why you are so triggered? (...)

No, Philip.

What happens is that I and other people on this forum are concerned for your mental health. Please see a professional.

I think that you are projecting, and should be reprimanded for such behavior.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: MundaCorMeum on May 12, 2021, 08:44:54 PM
some had both French and German speaking nannies.

Trčs gut!

I have both French and German ancestry.  But, the French side won out, and that's the only language I ever delved into.  Both Cajun French and "regular" French. 
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: GiftOfGod on May 25, 2021, 01:29:30 AM
Knowing more than one language doesn't make someone multicultural. Old-time INS guys had to know English and Spanish MINIMUM in order to have the pleasure of trying to prevent multiculturalism in the USA. If they wanted a better chance to be assigned to the Northern Border, an International Airport, a foreign airport (pre-clearance), or have a chance of being promoted then they had had better know more than the minimum (French was the second most common). Lots of employers of illegal aliens know Spanish but only speak it in the course of business and don't even eat tacos at home.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: dymphnaw on May 27, 2021, 09:40:30 PM
Who was it that named John the baptist?  It was his father.  Post Fall, it is to be the father to speak the first words to the child, in the form of their name, lest the woman, in her current state of pain, instead of blessing the child with a good name, curse the child as a result of her labors, by giving them a bad name. 
 or


Every time I think I've read the most bizarre thing ever on Suscipie Domine somebody tops it.
Title: Re: Downside of being fluent in multiple languages from young age.
Post by: Insanis on May 27, 2021, 09:48:01 PM
Jewish naming ceremonies happened days after birth. Brit milah for boys and Zeved habat for girls. So the ceremonial aspect has nothing to do with pain of childbirth, unless one believes women are cursing their babies 8 days after they are born.

An angel named John, not his father:

Quote from: Luke 1
But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John