Pope Francis Says It's an 'Honor' to be Criticized by Americans
His throwaway remark, made in connection with a new book that claims influential American Catholics want him to step down, generated surprise aboard the papal flight today to Mozambique.
In National Catholic Register (http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/honor).
(https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncregister.com%2Fimages%2Fuploads%2FCNA_5d6fe606d24ad_162738.jpg&hash=f52f06c54991ed0b17963a36643f42cf5ab556de)
Pope Francis speaks during a press conference with journalist aboard the papal flight from Rome to Maputo, Mozambique, Sept. 4, 2019.
ON THE PAPAL PLANE — A quip by Pope Francis aboard the papal plane this morning raised a few eyebrows among those traveling with him — and sent his press handlers scrambling. After takeoff on his way to the Mozambique capital of Maputo, the Pope customarily greeted journalists on the papal plane. Among those he met was Nicolas Seneze, Rome correspondent for the French Catholic daily newspaper La Croix, which just published Seneze's book, How America Wants to Change the Pope.
The book threads together different aspects of this pontificate — in particular the McCarrick abuse scandal and the Archbishop Carlo Viganò testimony — to conclude that influential figures in the U.S. Church are out to, if not replace Pope Francis, then to actively challenge him. The book quotes professor Massimo Faggioli of Villanova as saying wealthy conservative Catholics have stepped into the vacuum of authority left by the sex abuse scandal to become the de facto leaders of the Catholic Church in the U.S.
On the plane, Seneze presented his book to the Pope, who recognized the cover, as he had read a review of it. The Italian daily newspaper Il Messaggero on Aug. 20 published a story headlined, "A plot from the USA to make the Pope resign." A cover of Seneze's book accompanied the article.
"He reads Il Messaggero every day so when he saw the cover of the copy I was holding, he instantly recognized it," Seneze told the Register aboard the papal plane today, adding that the book was published in French today. "When I explained the picture to the Pope, he said: 'Per me è un onore che mi attaccano gli americani (For me it's an honor that Americans attack me).'"
Seneze and his Vatican press colleagues were taken aback by the in-flight remark, and reporters immediately sought verification. Vatican press spokesman Matteo Bruni later confirmed the remark but was quick to offer an explanation: "In an informal context, the Pope wanted to say that he always considers criticisms an honor, particularly when they come from authoritative thinkers and, in this case, an important nation."
Seneze told the Register afterward that the Il Messaggero article was a little exaggerated. He said he doesn't believe there is a plot as such being hatched in the U.S. to unseat the Pope. Rather, he believes there's a sense among some wealthy Americans, including some who are connected to the EWTN Global Catholic Network and other media organizations, that Francis is not acting as Pope and so should stand down, like a CEO who is underperforming. Seneze said, "I believe these people see themselves as invested in the Church and they feel they are not getting a return on their investment."
Maybe Americans can further honor him by cutting off the flow of our money to the Vatican, eh? I wonder how he'd like that. I have a few words for him: don't defecate where you eat.
I'm just sad. I remember being in High School and watching the Papal Election, and I was wondering to what extent this Pope would be like.
I don't think that my High School self would have ever predicted what this Pope has turned out to be.
I hope I don't offend anybody on this forum when I say this, because after all, I don't identify as Roman Catholic anymore, but . . . I don't think anybody in the history of the world has ever fit the prototype of what it is to be the Antichrist quite like Pope Francis. Hear me out; pretend to be Jesus or God on earth, except contradict even His most fundamental teachings (not even including Paul's Epistles), even to the point of prayer (instead of praying "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner," praying "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like other men!"), and somehow convincing the masses that he is actually correct and that his teachings are more in line with Jesus than Jesus's own teachings!
Whatever happens next, even if it's a massive schism in the Catholic Church, the survivors need to use Pope Francis as an ideological study for the purposes of someone far worse yet to come, because even if by some miracle a new Pope fixes the Church, the ideological toxins are not going away and in fact are going to become more degenerate; and such a study is necessary because Pope Francis is the perfect prototype of the Antichrist. We need another "Pascendi Dominici Gregis" that explicitly defines and condemns the ideological wave of Pope Francis and all the far-left Western Christian leaders that fit such a wave, in far greater detail and precision.
I can't fathom how someone like Pope Pius V could have predicted Rome falling this far.
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on September 05, 2019, 04:47:45 PM
I'm just sad....
I can't fathom how someone like Pope Pius V could have predicted Rome falling this far.
Yes it is sad. Let's not pretend it isn't.
No one predicted how bad it would become except St. Vincent of Lerins. He has the only answer to this problem but the problem is his theology was rejected at Vatican I. How to rectify the problem I don't know, no one does. The Vincentian Canon seems to be the only way but "sono tradizione io!" of Pius IX makes it hard to be both. If anyone has a solution I'd love to hear it.
If he likes criticism, why does he suppress it?
QuotePope Francis: 'honored' by criticism? (https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?ID=1756)
by Phil Lawler | Sep 05, 2019
In the latest effort to explain away an unguarded utterance by Pope Francis, Matteo Bruni, the director of the Vatican press office, told reporters how they should interpret (http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/honor) the papal remark that "it's an honor that Americans attack me."
QuoteIn an informal context, the Pope wanted to say that he always considers criticisms an honor, particularly when they come from authoritative thinkers and, in this case, an important nation.
OK, the context was informal. The Pope was not speaking at a press conference. He was making a personal response to an author who had presented him with a book. There just happened to be a few dozen reporters within earshot, so the Pope's comment couldn't be denied. (Recall that when Pope Francis reportedly denied the existence of hell (https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1279), the Vatican said the quotation could not "be considered a faithful transcription" and left it at that.)
But let's take a closer look at that "informal context." The Pope had been presented with a copy of How American Wants to Change the Pope, in which author Nicolas Seneze argues that a powerful coalition of conservative American political interests is working against the Pontiff. The Pope expresses a keen interest in the book, and in another offhand remark as he passed the book to an aide, described it as "a bomb."
Seneze does not merely report that the Pope has American critics; he claims, in effect, that there is an American conspiracy against the papacy. Pope Francis indicates that he is anxious to learn more about the conspiracy theory. Now in that "informal context" does it really sound as if the Pope feels honored by this criticism?
The papal spokesman goes on to say that the Pope is honored because the criticism comes from "authoritative thinkers." Is he saying, then, that the American critics of the Pontiff are "authoritative thinkers?" Because that really isn't the thrust of the Seneze book that the Pope was welcoming. Seneze argues that the American critics are politically motivated: a theme that the Pope's closest associates have sounded frequently. Or is Seneze himself the authoritative thinker? Because he's not criticizing the Pope; he's criticizing those people who criticize the Pope.
Finally—not to belabor the point unduly—despite his claims and those of his spokesman, there's precious little evidence that Pope Francis is "honored' by criticism. Ask Cardinals Burke and Müller. Ask the other authors of the dubia. Ask the priests who were summarily dismissed from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for voicing concerns about the Pope's thinking. Ask the ousted faculty members of the John Paul II Institute (https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1356). One honors criticism by responding to it. The track record suggests that Pope Francis prefers to suppress it.
Seems like there one of the Marian prophecies speak of the Vatican being destroyed during the reign of "Peter the Roman." God dropped a rock on Sodom, I am sure if he wants to he can drop a rock on Rome. I am personally more concerned about him dropping a rock on me.
Quote from: 2Towers on September 13, 2019, 10:44:38 PM
God dropped a rock on Sodom, I am sure if he wants to he can drop a rock on Rome.
In truth, no.
Rome can never lose the faith, this is an established dogma of Catholicism. There is no conceivable scenario in which God drops rocks on His sole representative on earth.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on September 13, 2019, 11:14:42 PM
Quote from: 2Towers on September 13, 2019, 10:44:38 PM
God dropped a rock on Sodom, I am sure if he wants to he can drop a rock on Rome.
In truth, no.
Rome can never lose the faith, this is an established dogma of Catholicism. There is no conceivable scenario in which God drops rocks on His sole representative on earth.
As much as you like to point out the logical inconsistency of Traditional Catholicism - at least, the R&R movement - between arguing the Pope is the sole epistemological authority and rejecting this epistemological authority when it is contradictory to the past, this argument right here you posted logically does not follow at all, and in fact, growing up, I was told otherwise.
I remember being under the impression when I was younger that if the Pope were to about to speak some moral heresy, like allowing gay marriage, God would allow him to die or smite him to prevent the Church from apostasizing. This is not some Sedevacantist or Trad Cat group; this was a Novus Ordo, JPII environment.
I think that there is inconsistency with Fatima, as if the Pope could be threatened by an apparition - but at the same time, nowhere in Papal Infallibility's dogma is God barred from allowing the pre-mature deaths of Popes, or even ordering the deaths of Popes. If this were truly the case, then the Popes would all be incapable of being murdered, but this is obviously not the case, because Popes have been murdered and taken out before - see Saint Pope Martin, or Pope Stephen VI.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on September 13, 2019, 11:14:42 PM
Quote from: 2Towers on September 13, 2019, 10:44:38 PM
God dropped a rock on Sodom, I am sure if he wants to he can drop a rock on Rome.
In truth, no.
Rome can never lose the faith, this is an established dogma of Catholicism. There is no conceivable scenario in which God drops rocks on His sole representative on earth.
But eminent theologians have held that the Pope as a private person could fall into heresy. Innocent III affirmed this also as well as the Old Code of Canon Law under the topic of loss of Papal office.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 14, 2019, 01:04:19 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on September 13, 2019, 11:14:42 PM
Quote from: 2Towers on September 13, 2019, 10:44:38 PM
God dropped a rock on Sodom, I am sure if he wants to he can drop a rock on Rome.
In truth, no.
Rome can never lose the faith, this is an established dogma of Catholicism. There is no conceivable scenario in which God drops rocks on His sole representative on earth.
But eminent theologians have held that the Pope as a private person could fall into heresy. Innocent III affirmed this also as well as the Old Code of Canon Law under the topic of loss of Papal office.
Yeah, but God would literally be dropping rocks on himself. It's doubtful God would deprive those He loves of the instrument He created to save them --basically closing the doors of His house on His children.
The Pope may fall into heresy, but Christ is still in there in the tabernacle.
Dropping Rocks on a false Pope would not be the same as dropping rocks on Himself, right?
re. Left defensless: What has happened in the last 50+ years? The errors emanating from Rome and the bishops have led millions astray.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 10:38:14 AM
Dropping Rocks on a false Pope would not be the same as dropping rocks on Himself, right?
re. Left defensless: What has happened in the last 50+ years? The errors emanating from Rome and the bishops have led millions astray.
Well of course, but that's different from "dropping rocks on Rome".
The Church, which is usually is meant when people refer to Rome, is a bigger victim in all of this than any of us are.
Try to take out the hostage taker without killing all of his victims in the process.
Yes, all Catholics and even non-Catholics that would have become Catholics and Catholics that have lost the faith, because of Vatican II are all victims. A lot of rocks need to be dropped on the right places.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 15, 2019, 10:54:59 AM
Yes, all Catholics and even non-Catholics that would have become Catholics and Catholics that have lost the faith, because of Vatican II are all victims. A lot of rocks need to be dropped on the right places.
Indeed. Something we should all be praying for.
Quote from: dellery on September 15, 2019, 07:46:26 AM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on September 14, 2019, 01:04:19 PM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on September 13, 2019, 11:14:42 PM
Quote from: 2Towers on September 13, 2019, 10:44:38 PM
God dropped a rock on Sodom, I am sure if he wants to he can drop a rock on Rome.
In truth, no.
Rome can never lose the faith, this is an established dogma of Catholicism. There is no conceivable scenario in which God drops rocks on His sole representative on earth.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-miracle-of-hiroshima-jesuits-survived-the-atomic-bomb-thanks-to-the-rosary-69261
But eminent theologians have held that the Pope as a private person could fall into heresy. Innocent III affirmed this also as well as the Old Code of Canon Law under the topic of loss of Papal office.
Yeah, but God would literally be dropping rocks on himself. It's doubtful God would deprive those He loves of the instrument He created to save them --basically closing the doors of His house on His children.
The Pope may fall into heresy, but Christ is still in there in the tabernacle.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-miracle-of-hiroshima-jesuits-survived-the-atomic-bomb-thanks-to-the-rosary-69261
In the miracle of Hiroshima, three Jesuits survived the atomic bomb by praying the rosary.
How many hurricanes have destroyed cities save the high alter or a statue of our Lady?
Quote from: bigbadtrad on September 06, 2019, 01:42:18 AM
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on September 05, 2019, 04:47:45 PM
I'm just sad....
I can't fathom how someone like Pope Pius V could have predicted Rome falling this far.
Yes it is sad. Let's not pretend it isn't.
No one predicted how bad it would become except St. Vincent of Lerins. He has the only answer to this problem but the problem is his theology was rejected at Vatican I. How to rectify the problem I don't know, no one does. The Vincentian Canon seems to be the only way but "sono tradizione io!" of Pius IX makes it hard to be both. If anyone has a solution I'd love to hear it.
FWIW, I have no special knowledge about this, but I found a "reasonable looking" post (on CAF) that says that the claim that Pope Pius IX said "I am tradition" is probably only "a pope fiction":
Quote
Allegedly, Bl. Pope Pius IX said "Tradition? I am tradition!" when confronted with an argument against papal infallibility at the First Vatican Council.
The misquotation originates from an 1870 book called Letters from Rome on the Council that claims to preserve the letters of three people who informally met various persons who were present at the First Vatican Council. The preface of the book sets itself up as offering "the most serviceable weapons for combating the legitimacy of the Council" and its audience is "Liberal Catholic[s ]." (Preface Page VII) Among those letters is Letter 61, on pages 712-731, which reports that the pope said the words "La tradizione son' io," which means "I am tradition," to a cardinal who objected to papal infallibility.
The specific letter that these words appear in argues that the pope himself might have started the chain of gossip that produced these words: "The following account of the dialogue between the Pope and the Cardinal is current at Rome, and it seems to rest on...Pius himself, who is notoriously fond of telling every one he meets how he lectured this or that dignitary." Then follows the account with the words "La tradizione son' io."
Note well: does the book claim to report the direct words of the pope? No, the preface says it contains only a bunch of letters from other people who happened to be in Rome at the time, and this specific letter merely conjectures that the pope might have said these words. Does it report the direct words of people who talked with the pope? No, it says this dialog comes from gossip circulating in Rome, or rather one particular version of the gossip written by "Liberal Catholic[s ]" interested in "combating the legitimacy of the Council."
Do these letters report formal interviews with the people who met the pope? No. Do they report impressions made on third-party people based on informal talks with those people? They claim to, and such impressions are problematic as a historical source. But the book doesn't even claim to report those informal impressions accurately. It says, "[The original] letters were addressed to a friend in Germany, who added now and then historical explanations to elucidate the course of events, and then forwarded them to [someone else]." (Preface Page V)
Based on the preface and the introduction to Letter 61, this supposed quote from the pope is unreliable. It is information handed down informally through at least eight different parties, some of which added things, some of which was pure gossip, and some of which was written with the specific intention of making the Council and its pope look bad. Allegedly, the pope (the first party) said "I am tradition" to a cardinal (the second party), someone at the council found out about it somehow (the third party), then it became gossip (the fourth party), this gossip was informally mentioned in conversation to a letter writer (the fifth party), he forwarded an informal writing about it to an anonymous guy in Germany (the sixth party), he added some things, then forwarded it to someone else (the seventh party), and they finally made it to the compiler of this book (the eighth party), who, by the way, uses the pseudonym Quirinus and not his real name, which is unknown.
The letter is gossip handed down through at least eight questionable sources. It should not be regarded as historical or a real quote from the pope. Rather, it is simply a "pope fiction!"
https://forums.catholic.com/t/bl-pope-pius-ix-tradition-i-am-tradition-another-pope-fiction/424351