Sentient AI ?

Started by red solo cup, June 12, 2022, 02:31:00 PM

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Julio

^It does not mean that animals have no soul. They are not to be resurrected, but it does not mean they are soulless. I reiterate the Biblical passage I cited.

andy

The biggest flaw in my theory is not that pertaining to the (animal) souls but how AI works. Animal brains work by feelings/information/signals/nerves/senses being intimately coupled with experience trained and DNA per-trained connected neurons where decisions and predictions are made. AI still only simulate it using a computational network.

The big question for me in this regard is, what faculties we can find 2 major kingdoms: Vegetabilia and Animalia? What is an essence of an animal soul?

james03

QuoteSt. Thomas teaches that we learn about the world from our senses.

Key point, define what is meant by "we".

QuoteWhich are 100% material. Our brain which processes that, with more or less success, is 100% material as well. Our bodies functions, those which we are aware, and foremost those which are not not aware and are vital for existence, are 100% material as well.

An awkward sentence.  Functions that "we" are aware.  Are you talking about senses?

QuoteAnimal brains work by feelings/information/signals/nerves/senses

The brain absolutely does not work on "feelings" nor information.  It operates on carriers of information and it's final product is a bit code.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Julio

Quote from: andy on September 18, 2022, 10:25:35 PM
The biggest flaw in my theory is not that pertaining to the (animal) souls but how AI works. Animal brains work by feelings/information/signals/nerves/senses being intimately coupled with experience trained and DNA per-trained connected neurons where decisions and predictions are made. AI still only simulate it using a computational network.

The big question for me in this regard is, what faculties we can find 2 major kingdoms: Vegetabilia and Animalia? What is an essence of an animal soul?
Both plant and animals have reaction towards self preservation. Plants react against invaders and the most common is release of poisonous chemical or allergic pollen. For brutes we know how they react by either running away or fighting. The plant and brute souls were not promised with any kind of resurrection, and that what makes humans different from them.

Brutes are instinctive and not rational. I think human rationality is because we are made before the image of God. That does not mean that such rationality can create sentient creatures the way AI are perceived by the many. It can simulate only but the simulation does not mean it has become sentient. It remains a soulless machine, unlike humans and the rest of God's creation that has their respective soul besides their being a machine at the same time. Body and soul is sentient. Body only is not. Human creations are body only hence can never be sentient imho.

Like what you stated, AI is just simulating them using a computational network, which means it is not originally emanating from how God designed them. Even the evolutionary process of how we understand the creatures developed as science explained to us could be the way God designed them. I say "could" because evolution theory may just be another error. Who knows right now?

andy

Even inanimate nature in way procreates. Look up at the sky and all those formations. And all those laws of physics which are meta material.

Yes, AI i.e. a simulated brain function is just a bunch of 0s and 1s but those can be turned into real actions too. There is also Reinforcement Learning which in a way makes the algorithm alive as it constantly modifies itself much like in real nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo is great example.

I do think that all of above also emanates from God, as God makes it possible to exist.


Quote from: james03 on September 19, 2022, 10:56:43 AM
QuoteAnimal brains work by feelings/information/signals/nerves/senses
The brain absolutely does not work on "feelings" nor information.  It operates on carriers of information and it's final product is a bit code.

What consumes that bit code (let's narrow it down to the animals)? Is it it's soul? What is an essence of an animal soul?

Julio

There is truly that difference between nature and artificial.

God makes it possible for the artificial to exist but it does not translate it His own act. The formation in the sky is nature whereas the computer movement is algorithm that makes them dependent on the manipulator. Reaction from the manipulation does not make them sentient, for the later is a natural phenomenon and not from the manipulator. Really, it is simulated brain function because it is not. It is like real because it is not. Their limited existence that are anchored exclusively on materiality is the inherent inability to be sentient.

andy

So if a Tesla in an auto pilot mode kills a motorcyclist, who's act it is?

Julio

Yes, perfect example. It must be the owner of it. It is the responsibility of the owner to see to it that everything in that vehicle is in order.  Both the civil and criminal aspects of them are the responsibility and obligation by the owner of vehicle. It is ones responsibility that such vehicle must be operated properly and it is the lookout of its owner that the machine or computer must be in order. The autopilot computer is not a person in law. Ergo, it cannot be charged with civil liability. Also, no one imprisons a machine.

That is the reason that in acts of corporations it is the incorporators who are liable for the criminal aspect of it even if it has corporate personality by fiction of the law.

So going back to the sentient issue of AI, I submit it has none.

james03

QuoteWhat consumes that bit code (let's narrow it down to the animals)? Is it it's soul? What is an essence of an animal soul?

The easy answer to the question you didn't ask, the human soul consumes and sets the bit codes.

For the animal soul, I don't know.  The philosopher Nagle pointed out that it is impossible for a human to know what it feels like to echo locate like a bat.  For that matter it is impossible for one human to show another human their preception of "red" or the taste of chicken.  And there isn't even an existence theory of how that would be possible.

Do animals feel pain?  Do they perceive anything?  Are they sentient?  There simply is no way to determine that.  We have to err on the safe side, however, and assume animal suffering.

An example, I can create an electrical device, which when hit with a hammer turns on a light, or emits a "yelp" from a speaker.  Does my device perceive pain?  No.

Suppose I kick a miserable yapping toy poodle, and it yelps.  Does it perceive pain?  I don't know, but I'll assume it does.  It's logical as the human being also has an animal soul, and likely the pain perception rests there, and thus animals perceive pain.  But there is no way to prove it.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Instaurare omnia

Quote from: james03 on September 20, 2022, 10:10:49 AM
Do animals feel pain?  Do they perceive anything?  Are they sentient?  There simply is no way to determine that.  We have to err on the safe side, however, and assume animal suffering.
[...]
It's logical as the human being also has an animal soul, and likely the pain perception rests there, and thus animals perceive pain.  But there is no way to prove it.
Mirror neurons: https://web.archive.org/web/20120426062918/http://else.econ.ucl.ac.uk/papers/uploaded/362.pdf
In short, these are elaborations of motor neurons first discovered in macaque monkeys, also found to some extent in dogs, and hypothesized to be a factor (via deficit and/or dysfunction thereof) in autism.

Scientists generally agree that mirror neurons are the basis of imitative learning, especially in infancy, hence the connection to motor neurons -- in copying the movements of another more-skilled person, we come to experience the same agentive thoughts and emotions when we repeat these movements later on our own. Beyond that, scientists debate whether empathy can result from the more utilitarian functions of those same mirror neurons, especially since arguments as to what autism really is are a bit of a minefield in their social implications. As for AI, is it possible eventually through numerous iterations of imitation to predict human intent? I don't know enough about AI.

But what will certainly be interesting -- and ominous -- is if the legal establishment ever moves toward agentive personhood for AI in the same way that it has for corporate entities. The latter, at least, are still aggregations of human persons.
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem, frustra vigilat qui custodit eam (Psalm 126:2).
Benedicite, montes et colles, Domino: benedicite universa germinantia in terra, Domino (Daniel 3:75-76).
Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation (Psalm 145:2-3).

Instaurare omnia

Quote from: josh987654321 on September 06, 2022, 08:23:21 AM
I think they already have and are using powerful AI fed with all of our data online that they can use to then manipulate us in massive ways. I think our best defense is 'shit posting', spelling mistakes and sarcasm [...] but new 'slang' etc, like Fr Mark Goring referring to the jabs in a very code way (which was very wise of him at the time) etc.

Except that in the massive volume of online traffic, it's a matter of time before the pattern recognition capacity of AI catches up. Thus any form of human communication that is mediated by technology must constantly be a step ahead. This in turn risks a Babel effect where people not only misunderstand the proliferation of memes but also waste time and energy in interpersonal confrontations over what is or isn't meant by some new word or expression.

Unfortunately, there's little recourse anymore to fruitful offline communication since the IRL tangible spaces we used to have are now colonized by unfriendly elements, if not disappeared completely.
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem, frustra vigilat qui custodit eam (Psalm 126:2).
Benedicite, montes et colles, Domino: benedicite universa germinantia in terra, Domino (Daniel 3:75-76).
Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation (Psalm 145:2-3).

james03

QuoteMirror neurons:

A neuron is either open or closed (ignore neurotransmitters for simplicity).  That's not perception, anymore than my "pain" switch that turns on a light bulb is perception.

I think I'll introduce a new term for discussion purposes: indications vs. perception.  A neuron can only indicate a painful state.  There's no perception of the pain, which is immaterial.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Instaurare omnia

^^^ I brought up mirror neurons not with regard to internal perception/indication/recognition of pain but rather with regard to the possibility of awareness of what another creature is experiencing. Thus my mention of empathy in the second paragraph, as well as the potential capacity of AI for "theory of mind". Sorry for not being more clear.
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem, frustra vigilat qui custodit eam (Psalm 126:2).
Benedicite, montes et colles, Domino: benedicite universa germinantia in terra, Domino (Daniel 3:75-76).
Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation (Psalm 145:2-3).

andy

Quote from: james03 on September 20, 2022, 10:10:49 AM
Do animals feel pain?  Do they perceive anything?  Are they sentient?  There simply is no way to determine that.  We have to err on the safe side, however, and assume animal suffering.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentient or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience terms are kind of overloaded. For my own discussions and research,  I assume this is a mere feeling and being able to re/act accordingly as well as being able to predict a short term future. I never asked about humans in a context of AI because we know for sure there is no way to create a human like soul and have a real self-perception/awareness like we do.

Animals are different though. We do know that their souls are mortal. They have some sort of memory. They learn. They can sacrifice themselves for their offspring. They can anticipate other beings moves. Some of them even display a sodomic behavior.

Is it all controlled by their brains only? If not, what else is at play? Indeed, open questions.



Julio

^^As Catholics we have to remember that even animals can be possessed by demons.

And he said to them, "Go then!" They came out and entered the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea where they drowned. Mathew (8:32)

It is therefore hard to just assume that animals are nothing but material things for the spirit of the unknown can be in them.