Started by TheReturnofLive, March 19, 2021, 07:01:36 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on March 19, 2021, 07:01:36 PMThe inherent paradox which Dostoevsky seems to attack on Catholicism, and perhaps, Christianity itself, is that the monastic mode of living inherent in Catholicism is paradoxical to the needs of the every single person. Each person needs food, each person needs security, each person needs government and political power - so how exactly is Christianity compatible with human nature? And moreover, how could you unconditionally love humanity when they are so flawed, so weak, and so pathetic as to not be able to embrace the monastic mode of living, yet love the monastic mode of living all the same?
Quote from: Pon de Replay on March 31, 2021, 07:51:17 AMNobody is denying the martyrdom of St. Paul. As for why he would willingly slog through all the trials and tribulations that met him in his ministry, the answer was given by Nietzsche: it was the will to power. Paul wanted power: "be ye followers of me." He even issued the reigning pope at the time a blunt correction to his face. That takes chutzpah. Traditional Catholics like to emulate that one. But people in the quest for power will sometimes endure much in order to have it. It is really a question of psychology. Some are delicate and would rather not be shipwrecked and robbed and starved and out in the cold, but others are determined, and are willing to suffer the cost for the prize. For Paul, it was freedom from the law. He had to get rid of the law, come hell or high water. It was an ideological commitment, and people tend to get zealous for those things. Paul had already been a zealot for the rabbinical side. Nietzsche perceived that Paul had wanted yet more: he wanted revenge. On the Jews and their oppressive law, on the Romans and their imperial brutality, and on the cruelty of his own obscurity and insignificance. When Paul was publicly beheaded, there was probably a crowd and it probably included many Christians, who would have been praying for him and repeating his own exhortations about rejoicing in your persecution. What power does a Roman axe have when you're going to meet the Lord in your resurrected body? Paul had achieved a renown and a cultic power by the time he died which he could never have hoped for in his former life as a persecuting toady for the Pharisees. He had thrown off the fetters, and here he was, a leader; his memory would be immortal. Glorious day.
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on April 01, 2021, 06:28:09 PMYeah but fwiw I think Nietzsche's idea that Paul corrupted Jesus's teaching to damn people to hell and that Paul's followers added the Bible verses of Jesus talking about hell is unfounded imo. Surely Paul was opportunistic in that sense, using the fear of death to bring people to God through himself, but still.
QuoteYes, it's pure supposition. On the other hand, Jesus never set anything down in writing (that which he is said to have inspired notwithstanding), so all we have to speculate on is Paul coming first and everything else afterwards. The concept of fiery Gehenna is unquestionably Jewish, and was very much in vogue in the riotous apocalypto-Messianic atmosphere of 1st c. Judaism, and therefore would have been quite familiar to both Jesus and Paul. So it is only left to consider which of them had the more vengeful psychology. Paul seems the better candidate. Just read the second half of Romans 1. You have to admit, though, "the last Christian died on the cross" is a good line (and appropriate to today on the liturgical calendar).
Quote from: Pon de Replay on April 02, 2021, 10:22:04 AMNietzsche bristled against Jesus' inherent Jewishness, but otherwise he tended to suppose him as a mystic given over to a kind of purity of perception. Jesus had fared much better than Paul in overcoming his own Hebrew instincts of resentment and indignity. Even the worst insult Nietzsche doled out to him, "idiot," is actually a left-handed compliment, since according to a footnote in my edition, this is a reference to Dostoevsky's novel of the same name, which the German philosopher had enjoyed, the eponymous character being tragically misunderstood. Nietzsche of course thought the gospels would have been great had there been a Dostoevsky around to compose them.
Quote from: Non Nobis on April 02, 2021, 12:36:43 AMSatan must have propped open Nietzsche's eyes and whispered lies in his heart to get.him to find such ugliness in St. Paul. Satan no doubt found that a good way to attack Christ, who specially chose St. Paul to help guide His Church.I pity you deniers and doubters on these Holiest days of the year.
Quote from: Xavier on April 02, 2021, 10:51:28 PMI do not think St. Paul's critics like Nietchze would have been able to endure his degree of persecution, notwithstanding their opinions on "will to power"! It was exactly the opposite for St. Paul. St. Paul would have had all power and glory, no persecution or sorrow, if he had continued as he was, as a Rabbi, as a Pharisee, as a Hebrew of Hebrews, a disciple of Gamaliel, just as he was in Judaism.
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on April 02, 2021, 11:55:19 AMI think it goes further back beyond Judaism considering the concept appears not only in other religions which would have had geographic crossover (for instance, "Tartarus" and maybe "Hades" in Greek Paganism), and religions which don't even have geographic crossover (for instance, "Naraka" in Buddhism and Hinduism).What is Jewish is the basis by which people are judged (being pure in heart or not, being meek or not, being loving or not, loving God or not) and perhaps eternity of it (Virgil's Aeneid seems to suggest that Hades involves reincarnation of some kind).
Quote from: Pon de Replay on April 03, 2021, 09:12:29 AMThere is surely power to be had in being the leader of a charismatic movement where the faithful flock to your speeches, and attend to the readings of your letters, and grab the hem of your robe to tell you at every opportunity how grateful they are that you have brought them the gospel of eternal salvation. And you get to regale them with how awful the Romans are. Not that they needed telling: these were predominantly the slaves, the poor, the women, and the lower classes. You were all united in your faith, and soon the world was going to end, and the trumpet would sound, and those nasty Romans would get their comeuppance & be punished forever, and the downtrodden Christians would rise up into the luminous heavens in glorified bodies to enjoy the torments of their erstwhile oppressors. Vengeance, sweet vengeance, will be yours.