What's the story on Fr. Gruner?

Started by rowsofvoices9, May 16, 2013, 02:50:37 PM

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rowsofvoices9

I know I'll be getting myself into a lot of hot water with some on this board over the subject of Fr. Gruner, however, my question is is he legit?  So far the facts that I've been able to discover are:

1. He is definitely a validly ordained priest.

2. The bishop who ordained and incardinated him into his diocese in Italy granted him permission to return to Canada because Fr. Gruner's inability to speak Italian.

3. After many years of operating his apostolate in Canada, he was suddenly ordered by his bishop to return to Italy.  Whether it can be proved that he is being unfairly persecuted because of the attention he's giving to Our Lady of Fatima and the pressure he's putting on Vatican officials to properly consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is not the question here and I'd prefer not to get into a heated discussion about it.

4. He has received a suspension from the Vatican stripping him of all rights to perform priestly duties or administer any sacraments due to his disobedience.  All one has to do is a simple search on the internet and this fact can be easily verified. 

5. He has appealed this decision and even posted copies of his appeal on his website claiming that he personally handed all pertinent material  to Pope John Paul II.

5. He claims he is now incardinated in some diocese in India and posts proof of this also on his website.

Now if Fr. Gruner really has been incaradinated into a diocese in India and every thing is honky dory, why doesn't he post proof that he has been excardinated by his bishop in Italy.  In order to be validly incardinated, a priest has to be excardinated first.  I don't understand why he just didn't obey his bishop in the first place and return to Italy.  If it's due to a language barrier, I find that to be a poor excuse because he's had at least 30 years to learn Italian.  Another thing I find very troubling about Fr. Gruner is if, and I make this very clear, IF, because I have no proof whatsoever,  is the assertion made by a fellow on another forum who claims he's assisted at Fr. Gruner's Masses and Fr. only celebrates what he calls the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass.  By canonized I gathered he meant that Fr. Gruner uses the missal approved by St. Pius V.  Again if this is true, this should set off red flags about Fr. Gruner.  When Pope Benedict XVI issued his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum  in 2007, he only gave permission to use the 1962 missal.  If there is no problem with him or his apostolate and he claims he loves the Holy Mother Church so much, why is he being so disobedient?  After all isn't obedience the foundation of all other virtues?

Another point I would like to make is, do we even need Father Gruner?  There are plenty of other resources available to point of all the discrepancies regarding Fatima and anyone who has been paying attention for the last 29 years knows that the second consecration Pope John Paul II made to the world didn't suffice.   


VeraeFidei

Quote from: rowsofvoices9 on May 16, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
I know I'll be getting myself into a lot of hot water with some on this board over the subject of Fr. Gruner, however, my question is is he legit?  So far the facts that I've been able to discover are:

1. He is definitely a validly ordained priest.

2. The bishop who ordained and incardinated him into his diocese in Italy granted him permission to return to Canada because Fr. Gruner's inability to speak Italian.

3. After many years of operating his apostolate in Canada, he was suddenly ordered by his bishop to return to Italy.  Whether it can be proved that he is being unfairly persecuted because of the attention he's giving to Our Lady of Fatima and the pressure he's putting on Vatican officials to properly consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is not the question here and I'd prefer not to get into a heated discussion about it.

4. He has received a suspension from the Vatican stripping him of all rights to perform priestly duties or administer any sacraments due to his disobedience.  All one has to do is a simple search on the internet and this fact can be easily verified. 

5. He has appealed this decision and even posted copies of his appeal on his website claiming that he personally handed all pertinent material  to Pope John Paul II.

5. He claims he is now incardinated in some diocese in India and posts proof of this also on his website.

Now if Fr. Gruner really has been incaradinated into a diocese in India and every thing is honky dory, why doesn't he post proof that he has been excardinated by his bishop in Italy.  In order to be validly incardinated, a priest has to be excardinated first.  I don't understand why he just didn't obey his bishop in the first place and return to Italy.  If it's due to a language barrier, I find that to be a poor excuse because he's had at least 30 years to learn Italian.  Another thing I find very troubling about Fr. Gruner is if, and I make this very clear, IF, because I have no proof whatsoever,  is the assertion made by a fellow on another forum who claims he's assisted at Fr. Gruner's Masses and Fr. only celebrates what he calls the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass.  By canonized I gathered he meant that Fr. Gruner uses the missal approved by St. Pius V.  Again if this is true, this should set off red flags about Fr. Gruner.  When Pope Benedict XVI issued his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum  in 2007, he only gave permission to use the 1962 missal.  If there is no problem with him or his apostolate and he claims he loves the Holy Mother Church so much, why is he being so disobedient?  After all isn't obedience the foundation of all other virtues?

Another point I would like to make is, do we even need Father Gruner?  There are plenty of other resources available to point of all the discrepancies regarding Fatima and anyone who has been paying attention for the last 29 years knows that the second consecration Pope John Paul II made to the world didn't suffice.
I will only make a couple points:

I do not think the poster at CathInfo to whom you refer excludes the changes to the TLM made throughout the centuries from Pius V to the middle of the 20th century. The point is that the Rite is the same. There are serious issues with the 1962, and the 1955 Missals. Your bit about "disobedience" is horribly off the mark - no one is obliged to follow a harmful law. That is the entire issue and basis of Traditional Catholicism.

Also, whether something comes directly from Fr. Gruner or not, a huge amount of anything serious about Fatima exists because of him and his tireless persistence. It is not as if one may ignore what he has done for the cause of Fatima, even if there are other sources out there.

rowsofvoices9

Quote from: VeraeFidei on May 16, 2013, 03:01:26 PM
Quote from: rowsofvoices9 on May 16, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
I know I'll be getting myself into a lot of hot water with some on this board over the subject of Fr. Gruner, however, my question is is he legit?  So far the facts that I've been able to discover are:

1. He is definitely a validly ordained priest.

2. The bishop who ordained and incardinated him into his diocese in Italy granted him permission to return to Canada because Fr. Gruner's inability to speak Italian.

3. After many years of operating his apostolate in Canada, he was suddenly ordered by his bishop to return to Italy.  Whether it can be proved that he is being unfairly persecuted because of the attention he's giving to Our Lady of Fatima and the pressure he's putting on Vatican officials to properly consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is not the question here and I'd prefer not to get into a heated discussion about it.

4. He has received a suspension from the Vatican stripping him of all rights to perform priestly duties or administer any sacraments due to his disobedience.  All one has to do is a simple search on the internet and this fact can be easily verified. 

5. He has appealed this decision and even posted copies of his appeal on his website claiming that he personally handed all pertinent material  to Pope John Paul II.

5. He claims he is now incardinated in some diocese in India and posts proof of this also on his website.

Now if Fr. Gruner really has been incaradinated into a diocese in India and every thing is honky dory, why doesn't he post proof that he has been excardinated by his bishop in Italy.  In order to be validly incardinated, a priest has to be excardinated first.  I don't understand why he just didn't obey his bishop in the first place and return to Italy.  If it's due to a language barrier, I find that to be a poor excuse because he's had at least 30 years to learn Italian.  Another thing I find very troubling about Fr. Gruner is if, and I make this very clear, IF, because I have no proof whatsoever,  is the assertion made by a fellow on another forum who claims he's assisted at Fr. Gruner's Masses and Fr. only celebrates what he calls the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass.  By canonized I gathered he meant that Fr. Gruner uses the missal approved by St. Pius V.  Again if this is true, this should set off red flags about Fr. Gruner.  When Pope Benedict XVI issued his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum  in 2007, he only gave permission to use the 1962 missal.  If there is no problem with him or his apostolate and he claims he loves the Holy Mother Church so much, why is he being so disobedient?  After all isn't obedience the foundation of all other virtues?

Another point I would like to make is, do we even need Father Gruner?  There are plenty of other resources available to point of all the discrepancies regarding Fatima and anyone who has been paying attention for the last 29 years knows that the second consecration Pope John Paul II made to the world didn't suffice.
I will only make a couple points:

I do not think the poster at CathInfo to whom you refer excludes the changes to the TLM made throughout the centuries from Pius V to the middle of the 20th century. The point is that the Rite is the same. There are serious issues with the 1962, and the 1955 Missals. Your bit about "disobedience" is horribly off the mark - no one is obliged to follow a harmful law. That is the entire issue and basis of Traditional Catholicism.

Also, whether something comes directly from Fr. Gruner or not, a huge amount of anything serious about Fatima exists because of him and his tireless persistence. It is not as if one may ignore what he has done for the cause of Fatima, even if there are other sources out there.

But, isn't it true that when Fr. Gruner received Holy Orders he made a solemn vow to alway be obedient to his bishop including the chief bishop of the Church residing in Rome?  Whether there are deficiencies with the 1955 and 1962 missals is not the point.   It's not up to individual priests or people to decide for themselves what missal is to be used for the celebration of Mass.  The point is Fr. Gruner doesn't have permission (and possibly any permission to perform any priestly functions) to use any other missal other than the one permitted by Pope Benedict.  What would happen to the Church's unity if every priest took it upon himself to decide for himself what teachings and rules he was going to obey?

Some traditionalists always love to claim that they are the sole torch bearers and safe-guarders of the truth those who happen to disagree with them are liberals out to destroy the Church.  Well it seems to me that there is a bit of hypocrisy going on here.  Some Trads are just as liberal as well and the cafeteria door is wide open for them.

The Promises of the Priesthood
http://www.thericatholic.com/opinion/detail.html?sub_id=4141

QuoteObedience to "the bishop and his successors" is another commitment a priest makes to strengthen his union with Christ and provide freedom for service.

I think it's interesting that on the road to the priesthood a man pledges his commitment to celibacy only once, but to obedience, twice – in both diaconate and priesthood ordinations. That's not because obedience is more important than celibacy, but because it can actually be more challenging. Once a priest pledges celibacy, that commitment sets him on a determined, focused path that results in a particular lifestyle. Obedience, on the other hand, is tested multiple times, in very practical ways – for example, every time a priest is asked to move to another assignment, or live with a priest he may not know or like, or is denied a personal request, or is required to follow a particular policy or law of the Church.

Again, it's important to underline the spiritual motive for obedience. In one of his audiences, Blessed Pope John Paul spoke of the practical challenges and rewards of obedience: "Obedience can sometimes be difficult, particularly when different opinions clash. However, obedience was Jesus' fundamental attitude to sacrificing himself and it bore fruit in the salvation the whole world has received." Similarly, in his obedience, the priest shares in the humility of the cross and lays down his life for others.

VeraeFidei

Of course it is true that Fr. Gruner made such a promise (not a vow, actually, he is not a religious but a secular priest). You are making the classic neo-Catholic mistake of placing obedience above everything else, including the Faith. Traditional Catholicism (and this forum, by extension) is founded upon the premise that, among other things, VII and the Novus Ordo are inherently problematic (to put it in a mild form).

One does not obey the Pope if he commands you to steal from someone. Nobody can legitimately command one to sin, even if he is the Pope. Traditionalists do not operate using private judgment, they operate with the principles and Tradition of the Catholic Faith. Novelty enshrined is still novelty, and heretics with power are still heretics.

Mithrandylan

rowsofvoices9 has made the trip over to SD because CI would not put up with his Novus Ordoism.  I think it is only right that posters are aware that he does not consider himself a traditional Catholic, he thinks sedevacantists are schismatics, he sees no problem with a 'reverent' NO, and (this last one is my opinion based on his public comments) does not think there is any crisis in the Church, or, if there is one, it is merely cosmetic and is mainly concentrated in the various 'abuses' that occur at the NO. 

If there are traditional Catholics or curious discerners reading this thread, they should be aware of this, lest they be scandalized into thinking that this poster's musings on a good Catholic priest somehow represent the traditional view.  Everything I have just said is a matter of the public record, and I have no problem offering the evidence for those that demand it.
Ps 135

Quia in humilitáte nostra memor fuit nostri: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Et redémit nos ab inimícis nostris: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Qui dat escam omni carni: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Confitémini Deo cæli: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Confitémini Dómino dominórum: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.

For he was mindful of us in our affliction: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
And he redeemed us from our enemies: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Who giveth food to all flesh: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Give glory to the God of heaven: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Give glory to the Lord of lords: * for his mercy endureth for ever.

-I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

HolyAina

Quote from: rowsofvoices9 on May 16, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
I know I'll be getting myself into a lot of hot water with some on this board over the subject of Fr. Gruner, however, my question is is he legit?  So far the facts that I've been able to discover are:

1. He is definitely a validly ordained priest.

2. The bishop who ordained and incardinated him into his diocese in Italy granted him permission to return to Canada because Fr. Gruner's inability to speak Italian.

3. After many years of operating his apostolate in Canada, he was suddenly ordered by his bishop to return to Italy.  Whether it can be proved that he is being unfairly persecuted because of the attention he's giving to Our Lady of Fatima and the pressure he's putting on Vatican officials to properly consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is not the question here and I'd prefer not to get into a heated discussion about it.

4. He has received a suspension from the Vatican stripping him of all rights to perform priestly duties or administer any sacraments due to his disobedience.  All one has to do is a simple search on the internet and this fact can be easily verified. 

5. He has appealed this decision and even posted copies of his appeal on his website claiming that he personally handed all pertinent material  to Pope John Paul II.

5. He claims he is now incardinated in some diocese in India and posts proof of this also on his website.

Now if Fr. Gruner really has been incaradinated into a diocese in India and every thing is honky dory, why doesn't he post proof that he has been excardinated by his bishop in Italy.  In order to be validly incardinated, a priest has to be excardinated first.  I don't understand why he just didn't obey his bishop in the first place and return to Italy.  If it's due to a language barrier, I find that to be a poor excuse because he's had at least 30 years to learn Italian.  Another thing I find very troubling about Fr. Gruner is if, and I make this very clear, IF, because I have no proof whatsoever,  is the assertion made by a fellow on another forum who claims he's assisted at Fr. Gruner's Masses and Fr. only celebrates what he calls the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass.  By canonized I gathered he meant that Fr. Gruner uses the missal approved by St. Pius V.  Again if this is true, this should set off red flags about Fr. Gruner.  When Pope Benedict XVI issued his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum  in 2007, he only gave permission to use the 1962 missal.  If there is no problem with him or his apostolate and he claims he loves the Holy Mother Church so much, why is he being so disobedient?  After all isn't obedience the foundation of all other virtues?

Another point I would like to make is, do we even need Father Gruner?  There are plenty of other resources available to point of all the discrepancies regarding Fatima and anyone who has been paying attention for the last 29 years knows that the second consecration Pope John Paul II made to the world didn't suffice.


Did satan help you draft this?

VeraeFidei

Quote from: Mithrandylan on May 16, 2013, 09:28:28 PM
rowsofvoices9 has made the trip over to SD because CI would not put up with his Novus Ordoism.  I think it is only right that posters are aware that he does not consider himself a traditional Catholic, he thinks sedevacantists are schismatics, he sees no problem with a 'reverent' NO, and (this last one is my opinion based on his public comments) does not think there is any crisis in the Church, or, if there is one, it is merely cosmetic and is mainly concentrated in the various 'abuses' that occur at the NO. 

If there are traditional Catholics or curious discerners reading this thread, they should be aware of this, lest they be scandalized into thinking that this poster's musings on a good Catholic priest somehow represent the traditional view.  Everything I have just said is a matter of the public record, and I have no problem offering the evidence for those that demand it.
Thank you for letting us know!

rowsofvoices9

Quote from: Mithrandylan on May 16, 2013, 09:28:28 PM
rowsofvoices9 has made the trip over to SD because CI would not put up with his Novus Ordoism.  I think it is only right that posters are aware that he does not consider himself a traditional Catholic, he thinks sedevacantists are schismatics, he sees no problem with a 'reverent' NO, and (this last one is my opinion based on his public comments) does not think there is any crisis in the Church, or, if there is one, it is merely cosmetic and is mainly concentrated in the various 'abuses' that occur at the NO. 

If there are traditional Catholics or curious discerners reading this thread, they should be aware of this, lest they be scandalized into thinking that this poster's musings on a good Catholic priest somehow represent the traditional view.  Everything I have just said is a matter of the public record, and I have no problem offering the evidence for those that demand it.

It's a good thing that you included in your comment that you were only rendering your own opinion about my beliefs because you are so far off the mark.  Just because I'm not a rad trad doesn't mean that I'm blind to all the disorders within the church.  I've made so secret of my beliefs and as you say that are all public and available for anyone interested in knowing.  It really isn't necessary for you to point them out.  It anybody is that interested, which I'm pretty sure most are not, all they need do is take a trip over to CI. 

As for Fr. Gruner, until he can prove that his suspension has been recinded, he remains a priest in bad standing within the Church.  Follow him to you own detriment.

Mithrandylan

Bad standing with which Church?  You say you are not 'blind to the disorder...' yet in the same breath you warn people against following with priests who don't throw in with your modernists.  You represent the Novus Ordo.  You cannot veil that. 
Ps 135

Quia in humilitáte nostra memor fuit nostri: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Et redémit nos ab inimícis nostris: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Qui dat escam omni carni: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Confitémini Deo cæli: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.
Confitémini Dómino dominórum: * quóniam in ætérnum misericórdia eius.

For he was mindful of us in our affliction: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
And he redeemed us from our enemies: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Who giveth food to all flesh: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Give glory to the God of heaven: * for his mercy endureth for ever.
Give glory to the Lord of lords: * for his mercy endureth for ever.

-I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

Charlemagne

Quote from: rowsofvoices9 on May 17, 2013, 10:23:41 PM
Just because I'm not a rad trad doesn't mean that I'm blind to all the disorders within the church.

There are absolutely NO disorders within the [C]hurch, only within the structure currently in place at Rome.
O Lord, grant to me the grace that, when I meet my end, it may be as I leave the Confessional.

"They [heretics] want to be treated with oil, soap and caresses. But they should be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can." -- Pope St. Pius X