The Cathar thesis: who created the world?

Started by gsas, November 27, 2019, 11:25:19 AM

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gsas

In Cathar dualism, exterminated by pope Honorius III in the 13th century, this trend of original Christian teaching claims, that the creation of the spiritual world was by God, and the physical world by the devil.  This is in contradiction with the book of Genesis, which states all creation by God. 

So here is the question.  If you are a creation of God, then create a painting and sell it at the art market, whose creation is the painting?  Yours or Gods?  I think the dualist answer is that it is immediately your creation and ultimately God's. 

In the creation of the world, God gave you free will, and God respects your free will, God will never do anything that goes against the decisions of your free will, whether you are aware of your decision or not.  The devil does the opposite, it takes away your free will by hunting for it and stealing it, like mugging you for it, best described by Jesus in His Good Samaritan story.

Now add to this, that your soul is eternal, so you have infinite time and number of opportunities to give your free will to the devil, with or without you realizing it. 

The central Cathar question is this.  Now that you have given your free will to the devil, knowingly or unknowingly, what can you do to get it back? 

Surely you can't command something that is not yours any more.  Also, God sees that you used your free will to give away your free will.  A mathematical function of recursivity.  Now how do you get out of this?  The Cathars had an answer.  Does the Catholic Church have one?

Gardener

Grace. Forgiveness.

Read the parable of the Prodigal Son.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

gsas

Quote from: Gardener on November 27, 2019, 11:42:22 AM
Grace. Forgiveness.

Read the parable of the Prodigal Son.

Yes, but grace and forgiveness have the disadvantage that you need to ask for them, for which you no longer own a free will to start.  The prodigal sun had to first return, by his own free will, his father wasn't looking for him.

St.Justin


gsas

Quote from: St.Justin on November 27, 2019, 01:17:48 PM
Not true

I would like to understand your answer better.  Imagine you no longer have free will.  How do you get it back?  Or get out of the trap?

Geremia

Quote from: gsas on November 27, 2019, 11:25:19 AMThe Cathar thesis: who created the world?
These paleo-Protestant heretics believed that there were two creators/principles, that the evil principle was the first creator, and that the material world was made by Lucifer/Satan.

From Bernard Gui, O.P.'s Description of Heresies (p. 379 of Heresies of the High Middle Ages):
Quote from: Gui[Chapter 1: Manichaeans of the Present Time]

[1] Concerning the Errors of the Manichaeans of the Present Time.— The sect and heresy of the Manichaeans and the supporters of its aberration declare and confess that there are two gods and two lords, to wit, a beneficent God and an evil one. They assert that the creation of everything visible and corporeal was wrought, not by God the Heavenly Father, whom they term the beneficent God, but by die devil, or Satan, the wicked God—for him they call the evil god, the god of this age, and the prince of this world. Thus, they postulate two creators, namely, God and the devil; and two creations, that is, one invisible and incorporeal, the other visible and corporeal.

Also, they pretend that there are two churches: The beneficent one, they say, is their sect, which they declare to be the Church of Jesus Christ. But the other they call the evil church; this they hold to be the Roman Church, which they shamelessly refer to as the mother of fornication, the great Babylon, the harlot and cathedral of the devil, and the synagogue of Satan. They despise and distort all its offices, its orders, its ordinations, and its statutes. They call all who hold its faith heretics and sinners, and they declare as dogma that no one can be saved in the faith of the Roman Church.

St.Justin

Quote from: gsas on November 27, 2019, 04:38:39 PM
Quote from: St.Justin on November 27, 2019, 01:17:48 PM
Not true

I would like to understand your answer better.  Imagine you no longer have free will.  How do you get it back?  Or get out of the trap?
The ability to reason right from wrong is free will and you can't lose that voluntarily.
My response was mainly to your view of Grace. There are two types of Grace, Sanctifying and Actual. for God supplies actual Grace without you asking for it.

you need to get away from all of this satanist garbage