Pope Francis wants 'poor Church for the poor'

Started by Gleipnir104, March 16, 2013, 01:29:25 PM

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voxxpopulisuxx

Quote from: LouisIX on March 20, 2013, 02:55:43 PM
Quote from: rbjmartin on March 20, 2013, 02:44:01 PM
This ambiguous talk of a "poor church for the poor" is superficially clothed in the language of the Gospels, but we have yet to see the authentic spiritual message of the Gospels emerge from beneath these garments.

This is the most succinct and comprehensive sentence on Pope Francis' early papacy I've seen.  So very well said, RBJ.
Welcome to SD RBJ! glad you joined...you and I were always on the same page alot!
Lord Jesus Christ Most High Son of God have Mercy On Me a Sinner (Jesus Prayer)

"You can never cross the ocean until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore." – Christopher Columbus
911!
"Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won. "— Louisa May Alcott

"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world."St. Arnold (580-640)

Geocentrism holds no possible atheistic downside.

OCLittleFlower

Quote from: rbjmartin on March 20, 2013, 02:44:01 PM
The current discussions of "the poor" (both here and elsewhere) in the context of the pope's statements seem to make no distinction between those who are materially poor and those who are spiritually poor (i.e. not "the poor in spirit" of the Beatitudes, but the spiritually impoverished). Certainly, poverty in spiritual matters is a more dire problem than material poverty, because its consequences are eternal. It is true that material poverty can often lead to despair and spiritual desolation, but it is not a given that the materially needy are the ones most in need of our kindness. We live in a spiritually impoverished world. The spiritually needy are all around us, and they include the rich. Is this new pontificate going to concentrate only on those who are temporally needy? I regard the widespread lack of faith and prevalence of error to be the greatest sources of spiritual impoverishment. Will concentration on material poverty do anything to alleviate these merciless destroyers of souls?

This ambiguous talk of a "poor church for the poor" is superficially clothed in the language of the Gospels, but we have yet to see the authentic spiritual message of the Gospels emerge from beneath these garments.

Great post!
-- currently writing a Trad romance entitled Flirting with Sedevacantism --

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CoolCat

from the Christian Post:

Pope Francis Could Foster Ecumenism, Help Decentralize Catholic Church, Latino Christian Leaders Claim

http://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-could-foster-ecumenism-help-decentralize-catholic-church-latino-christian-leaders-claim-92285/#fsEqZhH7Ex8ZuaFx.99
3/20/13

Pope Francis' installment as pontiff could lead to a major and significant impact not only in the Catholic Church, but also across all religions as well as the political area, a number of Catholic and Evangelical leaders in Latin America have said.

According to numerous Latino Christian leaders, Pope Francis could help to tackle the drop in adherents in the region, as well as become a bridge between the Catholic Church and evangelicals. His impact may not just stop there though, and they have also suggested that he could help connect the Catholic Church with other faiths, and ultimately decentralize the Catholic Church.

These claims have been made by the Vice President of the Alliance of Evangelical Churches of the Republic of Argentina (ACIERA), Gaston Bruno. In an email to The Christian Post, he suggested that Francis' election may have come about after Cardinals took into account the recent evangelical growth in the region, as well as the large number of Catholics in South America.

"Of course, this reality weighed in a certain way in determining the election of the new Roman Pontiff," Bruno wrote to CP.

However, Bruno also insisted that even if Pope Francis was partly elected to help the Catholic Church rival the evangelical growth in the region, it should not be a major concern for the evangelical Church. He told CP: "As Christians of evangelical faith, we will continue to preach the Lord Jesus."

Latin America accounts for around 40 percent of world's 1.2 billion Catholics, according to a recent study released by Pew Research Center on religions around the world. Brazil is the world's most populous Catholic country with some 134 million worshippers. Mexico comes in second on the list, with an estimated 96 million Catholics, and Colombia was listed as third with 38 million. Meanwhile, Argentina was not far behind with another 31 million Catholics.

stitchmom

White (not hispanic) NO members are usually financially comfortable. I'm not a fan of this pope but I think any awareness of the materially poor is good. The American NO members usually have the typical GOP attitude.

voxxpopulisuxx

Quote from: stitchmom on March 20, 2013, 07:05:50 PM
White (not hispanic) NO members are usually financially comfortable. I'm not a fan of this pope but I think any awareness of the materially poor is good. The American NO members usually have the typical GOP attitude.
I think very few average Americans at all are truly aware of real material poverty.
Lord Jesus Christ Most High Son of God have Mercy On Me a Sinner (Jesus Prayer)

"You can never cross the ocean until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore." – Christopher Columbus
911!
"Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won. "— Louisa May Alcott

"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world."St. Arnold (580-640)

Geocentrism holds no possible atheistic downside.

silvia

Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on March 20, 2013, 07:10:48 PM
Quote from: stitchmom on March 20, 2013, 07:05:50 PM
White (not hispanic) NO members are usually financially comfortable. I'm not a fan of this pope but I think any awareness of the materially poor is good. The American NO members usually have the typical GOP attitude.
I think very few average Americans at all are truly aware of real material poverty.

Exactly. Americans do not know what material poverty is. No matter what race they are.

OCLittleFlower

Quote from: stitchmom on March 20, 2013, 07:05:50 PM
White (not hispanic) NO members are usually financially comfortable. I'm not a fan of this pope but I think any awareness of the materially poor is good. The American NO members usually have the typical GOP attitude.

Which means that, if he focuses only on the materially poor, nothing will be done to improve the quality of the theology, etc, that is being taught to the average NO member in the US.  Which is where we get Joe Biden, et al.
-- currently writing a Trad romance entitled Flirting with Sedevacantism --

???? ?? ?????? ????????? ???, ?? ?????.

Gerard

Quote from: silvia on March 20, 2013, 07:59:00 PM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on March 20, 2013, 07:10:48 PM
Quote from: stitchmom on March 20, 2013, 07:05:50 PM
White (not hispanic) NO members are usually financially comfortable. I'm not a fan of this pope but I think any awareness of the materially poor is good. The American NO members usually have the typical GOP attitude.
I think very few average Americans at all are truly aware of real material poverty.

Exactly. Americans do not know what material poverty is. No matter what race they are.

A lot of Irish and Italians in the Northeast will disagree with you.  The poor of Appalachia will certainly disagree with you.  The Homeless in the cities will disagree with you. 

A lot of people lose homes in Tornado Alley, a lot of people lose everything in mudslides in California, Floods in the South, Storms along the coastlines. 

Tell anyone who was born and lived during the Great Depression, they don't know material poverty and they'll tell you a thing or two. 

The only difference is in many cases our ancestors that came to America, came poor and stayed poor until they benefited from far better clergy than Cardinal Bergoglio. 

The Irish and many other groups that came to America did know real material poverty and it was Bishops like "Dagger John" Hughes that organized, protected and defended them from corrupt governments and built the community up, built schools, Churches and businesses.  Our Basilicas are built like fortresses for a reason.  Catholics were hanging from street lamps in the cities of the U.S and bishops with strength fought back.  And I bet Bishop Hughes always genuflected when he consecrated the host and the chalice at Mass.  And I bet he wore very nice vestments.

Feelings for the poor are fine, throwing just enough crumbs their way to keep them poor and with their hands out is cruelty beyond measure. 

Pope "Francis" and all his hand wringing about the poor is a leach on the potential of the faithful.  He derives his power from the poor and disenfranchised.  His interest is power, not the poor. 

It's amazing how so many Americans have suffered real material poverty or been on the edge of it, only to be saved by the generosity and charity of the "Rich Church" that they built.  The same one that Francis intends to finish destroying.  All for the financially poor. 






voxxpopulisuxx

Gerard I said AVERAGE Americans...those you sighted are not the average. I was materially poor to a degree when I was a young boy...but we had a home and food (thanks to my mothers slaveing work ethic) but I personally have alot of empathy with the poor. The average american would call someone poor if they didnt have a cellphone.
Lord Jesus Christ Most High Son of God have Mercy On Me a Sinner (Jesus Prayer)

"You can never cross the ocean until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore." – Christopher Columbus
911!
"Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won. "— Louisa May Alcott

"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world."St. Arnold (580-640)

Geocentrism holds no possible atheistic downside.

Gerard

Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on March 20, 2013, 09:11:41 PM
Gerard I said AVERAGE Americans...those you sighted are not the average. I was materially poor to a degree when I was a young boy...but we had a home and food (thanks to my mothers slaveing work ethic) but I personally have alot of empathy with the poor. The average american would call someone poor if they didnt have a cellphone.

Well. Silvia expanded your definition to encompass all Americans of any race, which is why quoted her.  But I think what I was getting at ties into the "average mentality." 

There is a new attitude towards "poverty"that is very different from the poor that didn't think of themselves as poor as they were lead initially by good clergy step by step and against numerous obstacles and resistance to build, decade by decade into a community that through God's grace took care of themselves and that virtuous cycle continued. 

I think there's a real difference in true charity when comparing the Bergoglio model of feeling for the poor and the Hughes model of being the father of the poor and raising them in every sense, spiritually, materially, intellectually out of ignorance, crime, prostitution and all the sins included in that. 


stitchmom

Quote from: silvia on March 20, 2013, 07:59:00 PM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on March 20, 2013, 07:10:48 PM
Quote from: stitchmom on March 20, 2013, 07:05:50 PM
White (not hispanic) NO members are usually financially comfortable. I'm not a fan of this pope but I think any awareness of the materially poor is good. The American NO members usually have the typical GOP attitude.
I think very few average Americans at all are truly aware of real material poverty.

Exactly. Americans do not know what material poverty is. No matter what race they are.

OCLF This what I would consider one of those GOP attitudes. The right wing politicians spread these lies for political gain.

stitchmom

Quote from: Gerard on March 20, 2013, 09:05:23 PM

Feelings for the poor are fine, throwing just enough crumbs their way to keep them poor and with their hands out is cruelty beyond measure. 





This is the attitude I saw with the white Southern Baptist church culture towards the poor in the community who were usually black.  It's like they didn't recognize them as humans and all that means like the children have great potential.

stitchmom

#57
deleted sorry I posted before having my hot drink :)

OCLittleFlower

Quote from: stitchmom on March 21, 2013, 05:16:28 AM
Quote from: silvia on March 20, 2013, 07:59:00 PM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on March 20, 2013, 07:10:48 PM
Quote from: stitchmom on March 20, 2013, 07:05:50 PM
White (not hispanic) NO members are usually financially comfortable. I'm not a fan of this pope but I think any awareness of the materially poor is good. The American NO members usually have the typical GOP attitude.
I think very few average Americans at all are truly aware of real material poverty.

Exactly. Americans do not know what material poverty is. No matter what race they are.

OCLF This what I would consider one of those GOP attitudes. The right wing politicians spread these lies for political gain.

I'm not sure why you're addressing this to me.

However, I think it is rare in the US for people to starve to death, etc, like what might happen in Latin America.  And in Latin America they think we are a wealthy country -- as compared to them.  So I could surely see the Pope not thinking that we have problems to be solved here -- because a) we aren't as poor and b) poverty is number one on his "list."

Then again, his ignoring us might be for the best in a lot of ways...hmmm.
-- currently writing a Trad romance entitled Flirting with Sedevacantism --

???? ?? ?????? ????????? ???, ?? ?????.

stitchmom

Quote from: OCLittleFlower on March 21, 2013, 03:05:51 PM
Quote from: stitchmom on March 21, 2013, 05:16:28 AM
Quote from: silvia on March 20, 2013, 07:59:00 PM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on March 20, 2013, 07:10:48 PM
Quote from: stitchmom on March 20, 2013, 07:05:50 PM
White (not hispanic) NO members are usually financially comfortable. I'm not a fan of this pope but I think any awareness of the materially poor is good. The American NO members usually have the typical GOP attitude.
I think very few average Americans at all are truly aware of real material poverty.

Exactly. Americans do not know what material poverty is. No matter what race they are.

OCLF This what I would consider one of those GOP attitudes. The right wing politicians spread these lies for political gain.

I'm not sure why you're addressing this to me.

However, I think it is rare in the US for people to starve to death, etc, like what might happen in Latin America.  And in Latin America they think we are a wealthy country -- as compared to them.  So I could surely see the Pope not thinking that we have problems to be solved here -- because a) we aren't as poor and b) poverty is number one on his "list."

Then again, his ignoring us might be for the best in a lot of ways...hmmm.

Sorry I thought you posted that but it was Sylvia.