Author Topic: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".  (Read 26322 times)

Offline Christknight104

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2013, 02:33:08 PM »
Ok, sorry, I'll rephrase it.  The pope isn't *supposed to be* a monarch.  Effectively, though, he has been one through much of Christian history.  And certainly at many times, the pope, as monarch, has been a benevolent one, but it doesn't change the fact that king was never the divinely instituted office he was supposed to fill.  One cannot believe it was without having a faulty understanding of the nature of the papacy, and I do stand by that.

Pope St. Pius X disagrees with your assertion, which he condemns as erroneous in his 1910 letter "Ex Quo:"

“regarding the constitution of the Church... an error, long since condemned by Our predecessor, Innocent X, is being renewed... with no less falsity, one is invited to believe that the Catholic Church was not in the earliest days a sovereignty of one person, that is a monarchy; or that the primacy of the Catholic Church does not rest on valid arguments”

- Pope St. Pius X, From the letter "Ex quo" (December 26, 1910). Source: “EPISTOLA Ex quo. - Qua vulgatum scriptum quoddam reprobatur circa quaestionem de Ecclesiis ad catholicam unitatem revocandis” in ACTA APOSTOLICAE SEDIS, COMMENTARIUM OFFICIALE, ANNUS III, VOLUMEN III (1911)
 http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/documents/AAS%2003%20%5B1911%5D%20-%20ocr.pdf
 

Offline Melkite

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2013, 02:43:14 PM »
Apparently, Pope St. Pius X wasn't familiar with the principle of 'just because you say it's so doesn't mean it is so.'  The testimony of the early church clearly does not agree with Pius X's understanding of it.
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2013, 03:44:48 PM »
Monarch is defined not as king but as sole head. So the pope is more than a king. He is the voice of Jesus Christ on earth. Christ is monarch..Pope is monarch.....end of story.

This...
Quote from: Bishop Williamson
The "promise to respect" as Church law the New Code of Canon Law is to respect a number of supposed laws directly contrary to Church doctrine.

---

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Offline tmw89

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2013, 03:45:00 PM »
Ok, sorry, I'll rephrase it.  The pope isn't *supposed to be* a monarch.  Effectively, though, he has been one through much of Christian history.  And certainly at many times, the pope, as monarch, has been a benevolent one, but it doesn't change the fact that king was never the divinely instituted office he was supposed to fill.  One cannot believe it was without having a faulty understanding of the nature of the papacy, and I do stand by that.

Pope St. Pius X disagrees with your assertion, which he condemns as erroneous in his 1910 letter "Ex Quo:"

“regarding the constitution of the Church... an error, long since condemned by Our predecessor, Innocent X, is being renewed... with no less falsity, one is invited to believe that the Catholic Church was not in the earliest days a sovereignty of one person, that is a monarchy; or that the primacy of the Catholic Church does not rest on valid arguments”

- Pope St. Pius X, From the letter "Ex quo" (December 26, 1910). Source: “EPISTOLA Ex quo. - Qua vulgatum scriptum quoddam reprobatur circa quaestionem de Ecclesiis ad catholicam unitatem revocandis” in ACTA APOSTOLICAE SEDIS, COMMENTARIUM OFFICIALE, ANNUS III, VOLUMEN III (1911)
 http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/documents/AAS%2003%20%5B1911%5D%20-%20ocr.pdf

...and this.
Quote from: Bishop Williamson
The "promise to respect" as Church law the New Code of Canon Law is to respect a number of supposed laws directly contrary to Church doctrine.

---

http://tradblogs.blogspot.com

NOW OPEN:  A new Trad forum featuring Catholic books, information, and discussion!
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2013, 03:48:31 PM »
Apparently, Pope St. Pius X wasn't familiar with the principle of 'just because you say it's so doesn't mean it is so.'

Wow!  If that isn't the most condescending remark RE the greatest pope of the 20th century, I don't know what is!

Given the amount of time he dedicated to studying the Church before his pontificate alone, I'm more inclined to take him at his word.
Quote from: Bishop Williamson
The "promise to respect" as Church law the New Code of Canon Law is to respect a number of supposed laws directly contrary to Church doctrine.

---

http://tradblogs.blogspot.com

NOW OPEN:  A new Trad forum featuring Catholic books, information, and discussion!
 

Offline trentcath

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2013, 04:13:34 PM »
Apparently, Pope St. Pius X wasn't familiar with the principle of 'just because you say it's so doesn't mean it is so.'  The testimony of the early church clearly does not agree with Pius X's understanding of it.

 :shrug:
Or maybe you should stop taking eastern orthodox propoganda at face value?
 

Offline CamelliaSinensis

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 04:37:57 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, Pius XII condemned archeologism. Must we also put an Eastern Orthodox spin on it as well?
 

Offline trentcath

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2013, 04:44:06 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, Pius XII condemned archeologism. Must we also put an Eastern Orthodox spin on it as well?
?
 

Offline CamelliaSinensis

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 04:52:18 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, Pius XII condemned archeologism. Must we also put an Eastern Orthodox spin on it as well?
?
Basically, Pius XII warning against trying to relive the primitive Church from before the middle ages. I added my second sentence because of the orthodox propaganda comment.
 

Offline trentcath

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2013, 05:02:03 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, Pius XII condemned archeologism. Must we also put an Eastern Orthodox spin on it as well?
?
Basically, Pius XII warning against trying to relive the primitive Church from before the middle ages. I added my second sentence because of the orthodox propaganda comment.

I dont understand,  are you objecting to what I said?
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2013, 05:06:54 PM »
Doesn't look like he is to me.  I think his post to which you replied complemented your post from before.

...in other words, Melkite is wrong for a vast array of reasons, not just one!
Quote from: Bishop Williamson
The "promise to respect" as Church law the New Code of Canon Law is to respect a number of supposed laws directly contrary to Church doctrine.

---

http://tradblogs.blogspot.com

NOW OPEN:  A new Trad forum featuring Catholic books, information, and discussion!
 

Offline voxxpopulisuxx

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2013, 05:22:47 PM »
I am an eastern rite Catholic. the Pope IS a MONARCH better than any king or czar.
St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)

Writing to Pope Leo III:
Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven. (Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)

Writing to Pope Paschal:
Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. xliii. 23). To thee spake Christ our Lord: 'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all. (Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)

Writing to Emperor Michael:
Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highests of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)

I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

In truth we have seen that a manifest successor of the prince of the Apostles presides over the Roman Church. We truly believe that Christ has not deserted the Church here (Constantinople), for assistance from you has been our one and only aid from of old and from the beginning by the providence of God in the critical times. You are, indeed the untroubled and pure fount of orthodoxy from the beginning, you the calm harbor of the whole Church, far removed from the waves of heresy, you the God-chosen city of refuge. (Letter of St. Theodor and Four Abbots to Pope Paschal).

Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See. (Theodore the Studite, Patr. Graec. 99, 1420)
Lord Jesus Christ Most High Son of God have Mercy On Me a Sinner (Jesus Prayer)

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Offline Melkite

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 05:46:12 PM »
Wow!  If that isn't the most condescending remark RE the greatest pope of the 20th century, I don't know what is!

Given the amount of time he dedicated to studying the Church before his pontificate alone, I'm more inclined to take him at his word.

Well, the nice thing about it is, you don't have to take my word or his for it.  You can look and find it for yourself.  There clearly is no unanimous support for the idea of an ultramontanist papacy.  It's interesting, you can even find passages from the same father either professing or rejecting papal monarchy depending on whether he was at odds with the pope at a given moment (I.e., purely subjectively on the father's part in either respect).

Given the amount of time he apparently spent in studying it, did he ever acknowledge that the history does not paint a picture of papal supposrt so unanimously as he would like?  If he never mentioned it, then he was either dishonest, or not as well-read as you believe.  Which one is worse?
 

Offline Melkite

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 05:54:05 PM »
as well?
Basically, Pius XII warning against trying to relive the primitive Church from before the middle ages. I added my second sentence because of the orthodox propaganda comment.

Well, of course one would warn against trying to go back before the medieval church if the medieval church was clearly at odds with the apostolic church!   :toth:

While I agree that one shouldn't try to relive the apostolic church purely for the sake of being apostolic, it certainly is not irrelevant and is worthy of study that the early church and the medieval latin church are quite different on many things.  Frankly, I'm a little surprised to see someone who is presumably trying to preserve Latin traditions, at least in part, for the sake of tradition, arguing against a tradition that precedes even it.  It reinforces the idea that the modern trad movement is in many ways merely a medieval fan club, and it makes your point above less credible.
 

Offline trentcath

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Re: Pope's don't "resign". There is no "resignation".
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2013, 05:59:59 PM »
Wow!  If that isn't the most condescending remark RE the greatest pope of the 20th century, I don't know what is!

Given the amount of time he dedicated to studying the Church before his pontificate alone, I'm more inclined to take him at his word.

Well, the nice thing about it is, you don't have to take my word or his for it.  You can look and find it for yourself.  There clearly is no unanimous support for the idea of an ultramontanist papacy.  It's interesting, you can even find passages from the same father either professing or rejecting papal monarchy depending on whether he was at odds with the pope at a given moment (I.e., purely subjectively on the father's part in either respect).

Given the amount of time he apparently spent in studying it, did he ever acknowledge that the history does not paint a picture of papal supposrt so unanimously as he would like?  If he never mentioned it, then he was either dishonest, or not as well-read as you believe.  Which one is worse?

  :rolleyes:

And this arrogance is why the schism continues today