My problem is specifically with Frances Hodgson Burnett. In both A Little Princesss and The Secret Garden, she refers to some sort of omnipotent "magic" that makes good things happen. This magic seems to be in the place of God or Providence. Am I the only one who finds this irritating? I love these books, but this really bothers me.
E. Nesbit makes use of magic as well, but it's more fantastical so it doesn't bother me.
Quote from: Bernadette on January 24, 2024, 09:23:00 AMMy problem is specifically with Frances Hodgson Burnett. In both A Little Princesss and The Secret Garden, she refers to some sort of omnipotent "magic" that makes good things happen. This magic seems to be in the place of God or Providence. Am I the only one who finds this irritating? I love these books, but this really bothers me.
Your instincts are right to warn you against these works. They are bad and dangerous. I refer to "The Secret Garden" as "Lady Chatterly's Lover" for children. "A Little Princess" revolves around the idea that Eastern religions granted you magical powers. Theosophy was everywhere at the time.
I've never read Lady Chatterly's Lover so I don't understand the comparison.
Quote from: Bernadette on January 24, 2024, 10:24:22 AMI've never read Lady Chatterly's Lover so I don't understand the comparison.
It's an infamous book that was banned for many decades and was the subject of repeated court cases regarding censorship. When it was finally allowed to be published, it was a breakthrough that allowed all of our current pornography.
Her lover in the title is her gardener. He represents a pantheistic nature deity, like the boy in the "The Secret Garden." By embracing a pantheistic view of nature, Lady Chatterly frees herself from her sexual inhibitions. For the English of 100 years ago, breaking the barrier of class status by having an affair with one's gardener represents the ultimate rejection of societal norms.
All of these children's books like "Heidi" and "The Secret Garden" include elements of Christian Science in which you will be healed of your illness if you only get in touch with nature and think positive thoughts. It's a clear predecessor to the New Age movement that started in the Sixties. In some instances there were definite tangible connections between the one and the other like Aleister Crowley. Other times it was just the spirit of the age that was in the air. The first album by the group Pink Floyd who invented psychedelic rock while they were taking so much LSD that the founding member went crazy was titled "Piper at the Gates of Dawn," taken from "Wind in the Willows."
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Frontispiece_to_The_Wind_in_the_Willows.png/330px-Frontispiece_to_The_Wind_in_the_Willows.png)
Even Heidi? I'd have thought that the religious aspects would make that one acceptable.
Quote from: Bernadette on January 24, 2024, 01:26:24 PMEven Heidi? I'd have thought that the religious aspects would make that one acceptable.
Your question gave me some food for thought. I would say:
1. Religion was ubiquitous in that society. You couldn't write about the lives of those people without mentioning religion. But the book is part of a tendency away from religion and towards naturalism.
2. All of this goes back to Jean Jacques Rousseau. Who was Swiss, by the way. His theories about the "state of nature" and the "noble savage" and the corrupting influence of society upon our natural goodness had a profound influence on subsequent thoughts and beliefs and especially on this genre of children's literature, of which Heidi is one of the foremost examples.
Even "Swiss Family Robinson," which has less of magical fantasy elements compared to these other works, and which at heart is a Calvinist tract, still it has absorbed and represents Rousseau's theories about returning to a state of nature. Once again you see the Swiss element, and Rousseau was officially a Calvinist.
BTW, Rousseau was viewed by Catholics (and equally by Protestants) as the very Devil himself.
So what should I give my little niece to read as she grows older?
1. All the books in the series by Mary Fabyan Windeatt
2. All the books in the series by Hilda van Stockum.
3. If you want a fantasy element that is Catholic, I recommend "The 40 Dreams of Don Bosco."
By the time they've finished those they'll have become teenagers, at which point they can move on to genuine Catholic literature like the "Autobiography" by St. Teresa of Avila. She writes in such a direct style with so much personality that any reader can enjoy it.
Quote from: Maximilian on January 24, 2024, 07:09:09 PM1. All the books in the series by Mary Fabyan Windeatt
2. All the books in the series by Hilda van Stockum.
3. If you want a fantasy element that is Catholic, I recommend "The 40 Dreams of Don Bosco."
By the time they've finished those they'll have become teenagers, at which point they can move on to genuine Catholic literature like the "Autobiography" by St. Teresa of Avila. She writes in such a direct style with so much personality that any reader can enjoy it.
I heartily agree about St. Teresa of Avila. :) I do have the Angel Food series and Catholic Stories for Boys and Girls, so she'll have plenty of Catholic literature. It's just a shame that so many of the secular stories are problematic.
Quote from: Maximilian on January 24, 2024, 07:09:09 PM1. All the books in the series by Mary Fabyan Windeatt
2. All the books in the series by Hilda van Stockum.
3. If you want a fantasy element that is Catholic, I recommend "The 40 Dreams of Don Bosco."
By the time they've finished those they'll have become teenagers, at which point they can move on to genuine Catholic literature like the "Autobiography" by St. Teresa of Avila. She writes in such a direct style with so much personality that any reader can enjoy it.
All the books in the series by Mary Fabyan Windeatt
Those are wonderful, I love them. I have several of those on my Kindle.
Quote from: Lynne on January 25, 2024, 05:15:00 AMAll the books in the series by Mary Fabyan Windeatt
Those are wonderful, I love them. I have several of those on my Kindle.
Wow, there's the whole set on kindle. I've added them to my wishlist.
Quote from: Bernadette on January 25, 2024, 10:54:18 AMQuote from: Lynne on January 25, 2024, 05:15:00 AMAll the books in the series by Mary Fabyan Windeatt
Those are wonderful, I love them. I have several of those on my Kindle.
Wow, there's the whole set on kindle. I've added them to my wishlist.
If your experience is anything like mine, you will learn as much or more than the children do when you read them.
I suppose there's no problem with Peter Rabbit and Winnie the Pooh, is there? Or the Little House books?
I dunno I grew up on Wind in the Willows and always knew that there was some pantheistic rubbish in there. It's not exactly subtle but neither is it an overarching part of the story.
The book itself is quite charming. I need to read it again
Quote from: Melkor on January 26, 2024, 02:59:05 PMI dunno I grew up on Wind in the Willows and always knew that there was some pantheistic rubbish in there. It's not exactly subtle but neither is it an overarching part of the story.
The book itself is quite charming. I need to read it again
I think I read the chapter in question once, when I first read the book. Since then I've skipped it.
Quote from: Lynne on January 25, 2024, 05:15:00 AMQuote from: Maximilian on January 24, 2024, 07:09:09 PM1. All the books in the series by Mary Fabyan Windeatt
2. All the books in the series by Hilda van Stockum.
3. If you want a fantasy element that is Catholic, I recommend "The 40 Dreams of Don Bosco."
By the time they've finished those they'll have become teenagers, at which point they can move on to genuine Catholic literature like the "Autobiography" by St. Teresa of Avila. She writes in such a direct style with so much personality that any reader can enjoy it.
All the books in the series by Mary Fabyan Windeatt
Those are wonderful, I love them. I have several of those on my Kindle.
This series is on sale right now at TAN for 35% off. I'm very tempted.
Just ordered Don Bosco book. tks for suggestions.
The Victorians were great devotees of the occult. In fact this period saw a dramatic rise in all kinds of dabbling in seances, spiritism, Rosicrucionism, Theosophy, Hermeticism, Gnosticism and so on.
It's hardly surprising that so much Victorian children's literature is based on magic/fairies/the occult, all dressed up to be pretty and disarming.
Maybe borrowing some of the ideas of the critical theorists might be an idea here, as in being aware of what lies behind these charming stories.
What about the genre of Fantasy like C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, George McDonald and John Bibee's Spirit Flyer series?
I haven't seen any magic, nor mysticism, nor Theosopy is these books.
Thoughts?
Quote from: TradGranny on March 04, 2024, 05:47:50 PMWhat about the genre of Fantasy like C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, George McDonald and John Bibee's Spirit Flyer series?
I haven't seen any magic, nor mysticism, nor Theosopy is these books.
Thoughts?
Funny you should ask that. Just after I posted the above, I wondered about Tolkien. And I suppose C.S Lewis, although I'm not familiar with the other two authors.
How about this as a first thought? There's nothing wrong with using fantasy to tell a story. But if you're going to read such works, be aware that some authors might use the format to introduce "magic, mysticism or Theosophy" into their stories, especially during a time when these ideas are being heavily promoted.
PS. I'm a big fan of Tolkien.
Quote from: awkward customer on March 05, 2024, 05:40:05 AMQuote from: TradGranny on March 04, 2024, 05:47:50 PMWhat about the genre of Fantasy like C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, George McDonald and John Bibee's Spirit Flyer series?
I haven't seen any magic, nor mysticism, nor Theosopy is these books.
Thoughts?
Funny you should ask that. Just after I posted the above, I wondered about Tolkien. And I suppose C.S Lewis, although I'm not familiar with the other two authors.
How about this as a first thought? There's nothing wrong with using fantasy to tell a story. But if you're going to read such works, be aware that some authors might use the format to introduce "magic, mysticism or Theosophy" into their stories, especially during a time when these ideas are being heavily promoted.
PS. I'm a big fan of Tolkien.
Yes, I agree with what you said and some of them like Madeline L'Engle (not sure of spelling) are difficult to identify at first.
I think C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, George McDonald all pass the test.