The Russian invasion of Ukraine

Started by Mono no aware, November 15, 2022, 11:33:59 AM

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Mono no aware

The objective is for each participant to contribute to a substantive discussion of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine without being disqualified for breaking the rules of the game:

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  • Standard capitalization in accordance with the norms of 20th and 21st c. British and American English must be used.

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  • Private revelations not approved by a local ordinary may not be cited.
Any player breaking one or more of the rules is prohibited from further participation in the thread.

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Mono no aware

Reuters | Russia's defence ministry denies Russian missiles struck Polish territory

QuoteRussia's defence ministry on Tuesday denied reports that Russian missiles had hit Polish territory, describing them as "a deliberate provocation aimed at escalating the situation".

It added in a statement: "No strikes on targets near the Ukrainian-Polish state border were made by Russian means of destruction."

Wreckage reportedly found at the scene "has nothing to do with Russian weapons," it said.

Mono no aware

If these missiles landed in Poland are determined to be Russian in spite of Moscow's denial, will the United States and its allies keep their dreaded commitment from shortly after the invasion began?

QuoteNATO is looking at further expanding its presence in Eastern Europe with more permanent positions being considered in the Baltic countries, US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken said Monday.

"We're continuing to do that now including with the deployment of additional forces, including American forces here to Lithuania, F-35 fighters, various pieces of important equipment, all of which is being deployed here (and) deployed to the other states in the Baltics," Blinken said at a news conference in the Lithuanian capital city Vilnius.

Speaking alongside Lithuanian Foreign Minister Garbrielius Landsbergis, Blinken continued: "At the same time, we're continuously reviewing within NATO our defense posture, including looking at questions of extending the deployment of forces, looking at questions of more permanent deployments.

He reiterated the US and allies' commitment to NATO's Article 5, which deems an attack on one country is an attack on all.

"If there is any aggression anywhere, on NATO territory on NATO countries, we the United States, all of our allies and partners will take action to defend every inch of NATO territory. It's as clear and direct as that," he said.

Mono no aware

The Telegraph | Polish president says missile strike was likely Ukrainian and not 'intentional attack'

QuoteA missile that hit Poland on Tuesday was most likely Ukrainian and was not an "intentional attack", the president of Poland said.

President Andrzej Duda described the incident as most likely an unfortunate accident, adding that despite this the ultimate responsibility lies with Russia, which launched a barrage of missile attacks on Ukraine on Tuesday.

Will President Zelensky (called "Prez Zelensky" by his fawning adorers) retract his statement that the missiles were "Russian escalation"?

The Hill | Zelensky calls Russian missiles hitting Poland 'really significant escalation'

QuoteUkrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Tuesday called the death of two people in Poland from Russian missiles a "really significant escalation" of the war between Kyiv and Moscow. 

"Hitting NATO territory with missiles. ... This is a Russian missile attack on collective security! This is a really significant escalation. Action is needed," Zelensky said in a video address Tuesday.

Greg

I bet the Ukraine shot down that Malaysian airliner too.
If I used a ouija board as a mouse mat would my desktop computer get repossessed?

Mono no aware

Zelensky is not retracting his claim that it was a Russian missile that struck Poland recently.

BBC News | Ukraine war: Kyiv not to blame for Poland missile - Zelensky

QuotePresident Volodymyr Zelensky has said he had "no doubts" that Ukraine was not to blame for the missile strike that killed two people in Poland on Tuesday.

Mr Zelensky said he had received assurances from his top commanders that "it wasn't our missile".

He also called for Ukrainian officials to be allowed to access the blast site and to be part of the investigation.

His comments came as Nato chief Jens Stoltenberg said Kyiv's air defence missiles were "most likely" to blame.

US President Joe Biden also cast doubt on Mr Zelensky's statement that the missile was not of Ukrainian origin, telling reporters "that's not the evidence".

Mono no aware

While Western leaders are conceding that missile was Ukranian, they nonetheless insist that the incident was Russia's fault for firing on Ukraine in the first place.  Well, then who goaded Russia into this conflict?  At some point, if you're looking for someone to blame, you're going to end up all the way back at an Uncaused Cause.

Xavier

Ukraine didn't goad Russia into invading. Putin invaded because he denied Ukraine its own historical and independent identity.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Mono no aware

Quote from: Xavier on November 17, 2022, 06:47:33 AMUkraine didn't goad Russia into invading.

Of course it didn't.  Ukraine is just a pawn in this game.

Quote from: Xavier on November 17, 2022, 06:47:33 AMPutin invaded because he denied Ukraine its own historical and independent identity.

Somewhere on the other thread, I think, someone posted a video of John Mearsheimer's presentation on the topic.  I don't know if you watched the video and responded to the points, and that thread is a nightmare to search through due to its being clogged with long-form spam.  But you can watch it here:

In terms of Ukraine's historical and territorial identity, you didn't respond on this thread.

Xavier

I just saw that thread. I agree with everything Mike said on that thread and just thanked all his posts. I didn't realize he was perhaps the first person on this forum to correctly denounce Putin's Madness. Rest in Peace, Mike.

I'll watch the video, but I'm not impressed with the title out off the gate. It'll probably be more about liberal appeasement than anything else. If we don't appease Putin, he'll continue his Nuclear Terrorism, ergo we should appease him. Yeah, that's a non sequitur.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Mono no aware

#10
Quote from: Xavier on November 17, 2022, 07:15:23 AMI'll watch the video, but I'm not impressed with the title out off the gate. It'll probably be more about liberal appeasement than anything else. If we don't appease Putin, he'll continue his Nuclear Terrorism, ergo we should appease him. Yeah, that's a non sequitur.

Capitalizing "nuclear terrorism" violates the norms of 20th and 21st c. British and American English, so you have been disqualified from this game and may no longer post in this thread.  Sorry, but thank you for playing.  At least you have a video to watch as a consolation prize.

The only country guilty of actual nuclear terrorism is the United States, which did use nuclear weapons on another country in a war where it deliberately goaded that country into an initial attack.  Let us hope that history doesn't repeat itself.



Xavier

Lol. Have fun, Pon. I'll stick to the main thread.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Melkite

Quote from: Pon de Replay on November 17, 2022, 06:44:59 AM
While Western leaders are conceding that missile was Ukranian, they nonetheless insist that the incident was Russia's fault for firing on Ukraine in the first place.  Well, then who goaded Russia into this conflict?  At some point, if you're looking for someone to blame, you're going to end up all the way back at an Uncaused Cause.

If a pipsqueak throws barbs at a bigger kid, and the barbs don't really have any chance of hurting the bigger kid, whose fault is it when the bigger kid body slams the pipsqueak?

The bigger kid has a greater responsibility of moderation and prudence.  The pipsqueak might be a jerk, but that doesn't justify just any degree of retaliation.  Not fair to the big kid?  Sure, life's not fair.  Time to cry me a river, puss (the big kid, not you specifically).

Mono no aware

Quote from: Melkite on November 18, 2022, 05:14:12 AM
If a pipsqueak throws barbs at a bigger kid, and the barbs don't really have any chance of hurting the bigger kid, whose fault is it when the bigger kid body slams the pipsqueak?

The bigger kid has a greater responsibility of moderation and prudence.  The pipsqueak might be a jerk, but that doesn't justify just any degree of retaliation.  Not fair to the big kid?  Sure, life's not fair.  Time to cry me a river, puss (the big kid, not you specifically).

This analogy doesn't include characters standing in for the United States and NATO, so it's rather wanting.

Mono no aware

Keep on feeding that military-industrial complex.

Foreign Policy | Ukraine's Appetite for Weapons Is Straining Western Stockpiles

QuoteAs the war in Ukraine shows little sign of abating, Kyiv's Western partners are grappling with how to maintain a supply of arms and ammunition to Ukraine, which have proven decisive on the battlefield, without letting their stockpiles dwindle to the point that it could jeopardize their own readiness levels.

"I think everyone is now sufficiently worried,'" said a NATO official who spoke on condition of anonymity, adding that allies had called on Western defense contractors to ramp up production in the wake of the war. "The relevance of stockpiling is back."

NATO is now discussing how to support members if their stockpiles fall below the levels needed to meet their defense obligations under the North Atlantic Treaty, the official said. Although decisions around military aid to Ukraine fall to individual members of the alliance, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg has repeatedly spoken out about the need for continued assistance to Ukraine. Russian President Vladimir Putin made several "strategic mistakes" ahead of the invasion, including "underestimat[ing] NATO allies [and] partners in our commitment to support Ukraine," Stoltenberg said in remarks on Monday.

But back in Washington, some former officials are wishing that the Biden administration and NATO allies had gotten the message sooner, and they want defense spending, which has boomed since Russia's full-scale invasion, to continue to spike for the foreseeable future. "Even if there wasn't the Ukrainian fight, our stockpiles are still too low," said Jeb Nadaner, a former U.S. deputy assistant secretary of defense for industrial policy during the Trump administration. "You don't have to invent the weapons of the 22nd century to do this, but the industry will need a stable demand signal."