"St. Augustine: Metaphysics in Plato" by Dr. William Marra

[Kaesekopf]

So, is Dr Marra a good theologian to listen to?  Ive seen his books and his audio talks all over the place.  I dont want to waste my time with questionable thinking. 

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[SaintLouis]

After looking at some more of his videos I do think he says a lot of very good things mixed in what seem to be some errors.

Even despite his errors it may be interesting to see what he says in order to understand the viewpoint of people like St. Anselm or Blessed Duns Scotus since even though these two were wrong on many things we might find lots of good things in their work.

Besides that, I think he makes some good points about how all things that are good participate in God's goodness. I don't seen anything at all problematic in that. He also places a lot of emphasis on the objectivity of moral values and such. The movement to which he belonged to, phenomenology, seems to have some important insights provided that the phenomenology is "realist" and not idealist. When phenomenology first came out it was known for its anti-subjectivism, anti-skepticism and such. And even after many in that movement took an idealist turn many others remained realist like Edith Stein, Dietrich von Hildenbrand, Roman von Ingarden.

But he does have some errors it would seem. Now, given my last posts, it may seem as if I am a Platonist. That's not really true though. I've been reading more about Neoplatonism and I've realized that there are essentially two different strands within it: an overtly intellectualist Platonism which totally repudiates the senses and seems nearly Gnostic and a reality affirming Platonism which accepts that we find intelligible reality because the senses connect us to it. I would say that Proclus, maybe Augustine, Dionysius, and even Aquinas belong to the second sense of understanding things. It may seem ridiculous to call Aquinas a Neoplatonist but one has to consider that many of not only his but Aristotle's characteristic positions are fundamentally Platonist: antiskepticism, antinominalism, virtue ethics. Aquinas also spoke about the participation of all things in God which is a characteristically Platonic theme.

So if we consider this we find that Dr. Marra belongs to far on the intellectualist Platonist scale. You can see this from the fact that he seems rather sympathetic to Descartes and also from the fact that he appreciates the ontological argument. None of this is inherently bad but one should also keep in mind the good points he makes.

[SaintLouis]

I am also extremely grateful for the poster posting this link since it has led me to reconsider exactly what true "Platonism" means and see that, in reality, it is not a lot different than Aquinas's teachings (teachings which I now see as superior to many others such as Bonaventure's).

[Geremia]

Have the Popes praised (and virtually required) any Saint more than St. Thomas Aquinas, with regard to theology and philosophy?

The Popes on St. Thomas

Note: The following is a compilation of various popes' comments regarding the importance of the works of St. Thomas Aquinas to Catholic education. It is excerpted and adapted from the essay The Formation of the Catholic Mind by the College's [Thomas Aquinas College's] founding president, Dr. Ronald P. McArthur [RIP].

What does the Church, to whom Christ has entrusted His concerns for us, teach concerning theological doctrines?

Pope John XXII  1. Pope John XXII, speaking about St. Thomas, said before his canonization that "his life was saintly and his doctrine could only be miraculous ... because he enlightened the church more than all the other doctors. By the use of his works a man could profit more in one year than if he studies the doctrine of others for his whole life."

Pope Pius V  2. St. Pius V declared him a Doctor of The Church, saying he was "the most brilliant light of the Church," whose works are "the most certain rule of Christian doctrine by which he enlightened the Apostolic Church in answering conclusively numberless errors ... which illumination has often been evident in the past and recently stood forth prominently in the decrees of the Council of Trent."

Pope Benedict XIII  3. Benedict XIII wrote to the Order of Preachers that they should "pursue with energy your Doctor's works, more brilliant than the sun and written without the shadow of error. These works made the Church illustrious with wonderful erudition, since they march ahead and proceed with unimpeded step, protecting and vindicating by the surest rule of Christian doctrine, the truth of our holy religion."

Pope Leo XIII  4. Leo XIII stated that "this is the greatest glory of Thomas, altogether his own and shared with no other Catholic Doctor, that the Fathers of Trent, in order to proceed in an orderly fashion during the conclave, desired to have opened upon the altar together with the Scriptures and the decrees of the Supreme Pontiffs, the Summa of St. Thomas Aquinas whence they could draw counsel, reasons and answers."

Again from Leo XIII: "This point is vital, that Bishops expend every effort to see that young men destined to be the hope of the Church should be imbued with the holy and heavenly doctrine of the Angelic Doctor. In those places where young men have devoted themselves to the patronage and doctrine of St. Thomas, true wisdom will flourish, drawn as it is from solid principles and explained by reason in an orderly fashion ... Theology proceeding correctly and well according to the plan and method of Aquinas is in accordance with our command. Every day We become more clearly aware how powerfully Sacred Doctrine taught by its master and patron, Thomas, affords the greatest possible utility for both clergy and laity.

5. St. Pius X said that the chief of Leo's achievements is his restoration of the doctrine of St. Thomas. For he "restored the Angelic Doctor ... as the leader and master of theology, whose divine genius fashioned weapons marvelously suited to protect the truth and destroy the many errors of the times. Indeed those principles of wisdom, useful for all time, which the holy Doctors passed on to us, have been organized by no one more aptly than by Thomas, and no one has explained them more clearly." Indeed, Pius said, those who depart from the teaching of St. Thomas "seem to effect ultimately their withdrawal from the Church ... As we have said, one may not desert Aquinas, especially in philosophy and theology, without great harm; following him is the safest way to the knowledge of divine things.... If the doctrine of any other author or saint has ever been approved at any time by us or our predecessors with singular commendation joined with an invitation and order to propagate and to defend it, it may be easily understood that it was commended only insofar as it agreed with the principles of Aquinas or was in no way opposed to them." Theology professors "should also take particular care that their students develop a deep affection for the Summa ... In this way and no other will theology be restored to its pristine dignity, and the proper order and value will be restored to all sacred studies, and the province of the intellect and reason flower again in a second spring."

Pope Benedict XV  6. Benedict XV stated that "the eminent commendations of Thomas Aquinas by the Holy See no longer permit a Catholic to doubt that he was divinely raised up that the Church might have a master whose doctrine should be followed in a special way at all times."

Pope Piux XI  7. Pius XI said that "indeed, We so approve of the tributes paid to his almost divine brilliance that we believe Thomas should be called not only Angelic but Common or Universal Doctor of the Church. As innumerable documents of every kind attest, the Church has adopted his doctrine for her own.... It is no wonder that the Church has made this light her own and has adorned herself with it, and has illustrated her immortal doctrine with it ... It is no wonder that all the popes have vied with one another in exalting him, proposing him, inculcating him, as a model, master, doctor, patron and protector of all schools ... Just as it was said of old to the Egyptians in time of famine: 'Go to Joseph, so that they should receive a supply of corn to nourish their bodies, so to those who are now in quest of truth We now say: 'Go to Thomas' that they may ask from him the food of solid doctrine of which he has an abundance to nourish their souls unto eternal life."

8. Bl. John Paul IIBl. John Paul II said: "[T]he Church has been justified in consistently proposing Saint Thomas as a master of thought and a model of the right way to do theology....

"[T]he Magisterium has repeatedly acclaimed the merits of Saint Thomas' thought and made him the guide and model for theological studies.... The Magisterium's intention has always been to show how Saint Thomas is an authentic model for all who seek the truth. In his thinking, the demands of reason and the power of faith found the most elevated synthesis ever attained by human thought, for he could defend the radical newness introduced by Revelation without ever demeaning the venture proper to reason."

Pope Benedict XVI  9. Pope Benedict XVI said, "In his encyclical Fides et Ratio, my venerated predecessor, Pope John Paul II recalled that 'the Church has been justified in consistently proposing St. Thomas a master of thought and a model of the right way to do theology' (No. 43).

"It is not surprising that, after St. Augustine, among the writers mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, St. Thomas is quoted more than any other — some 61 times! He was also called the Doctor Angelicus, perhaps because of his virtues, in particular the loftiness of his thought and purity of life.

"In short, Thomas Aquinas showed there is a natural harmony between Christian faith and reason. And this was the great work of Thomas, who in that moment of encounter between two cultures — that moment in which it seemed that faith should surrender before reason — showed that they go together, that what seemed to be reason incompatible with faith was not reason, and what seemed to be faith was not faith, in so far as it was opposed to true rationality; thus he created a new synthesis, which shaped the culture of the following centuries."

Since Sacred Theology uses philosophy as a handmaid, the Church's duty does not end with a judgment upon Theology alone, but extends to philosophy as well.

Pope Pius XII 1. Pius XII said that "... the Angelic Doctor interpreted [Aristotle] in a uniquely brilliant manner. He made that philosophy Christian when he purged it of the errors into which a pagan writer would easily fall; he used those very errors in his exposition and vindication of Catholic truth. Among the important advances which the Church owes to the great Aquinas this certainly should be included that so nicely did he harmonize Christian truth with the enduring peripatetic philosophy that he made Aristotle cease to be an adversary and become, instead, a militant supporter for Christ ... Therefore, those who wish to be true philosophers ... should take the principles and foundations of their doctrine from Thomas Aquinas. To follow his leadership is praiseworthy: on the contrary, to depart foolishly and rashly from the wisdom of the angelic Doctor is something far from Our mind and fraught with peril ... For those who apply themselves to the teaching and study of Theology and Philosophy should consider it their capital duty, having set aside the findings of a fruitless philosophy, to follow St. Thomas Aquinas and to cherish him as their master and their leader."

St. Pius X 2. St. Pius X said that "all who teach philosophy in Catholic schools throughout the world should take care never to depart from the path and method of Aquinas, and to insist upon that procedure more vigorously every day...We warn teachers to keep this religiously in mind, especially in metaphysics, that to disregard Aquinas cannot be done without suffering great harm."

3. Benedict XV said that "along with our predecessors We are equally persuaded that the only philosophy worth our efforts is that which is according to Christ. Therefore the study of philosophy according to the principles and system of Aquinas must certainly be encouraged so that the explanation and invincible defense of divinely revealed truth may be as full as human reason can make of it."

When I first posted on FE and SD, I was rather shocked by how many minimized the importance of St. Thomas, or even the truth he taught.  I think they are making a serious mistake.

Check out this: https://archive.org/details/TestimoniaEcclesiae
It's a collection of all the popes' testimonies since St. Thomas's death until the early 20th century.

[1seeker]

Bl. John Paul IIBl. John Paul II said: "[T]he Church has been justified in consistently proposing Saint Thomas as a master of thought and a model of the right way to do theology....

That's a little disingenuous, isn't it?

The Church has no philosophy of her own nor does she canonize any one particular philosophy in preference to others.

-JP II, Fides et Ratio, http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.php?topic=3466027.0

[Gardener]

Bl. John Paul IIBl. John Paul II said: "[T]he Church has been justified in consistently proposing Saint Thomas as a master of thought and a model of the right way to do theology....

That's a little disingenuous, isn't it?

The Church has no philosophy of her own nor does she canonize any one particular philosophy in preference to others.

-JP II, Fides et Ratio, http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.php?topic=3466027.0

Not if by one it's meant on how to approach the magisterium and then the other is that anything not the magisterium is to defer to it, thus not being raised up higher than its place...

[1seeker]

I'm not sure what you mean by any of that.

[BigMelvin]

Great thread! I agree with the claim that a consideration of Plato's arguments concerning Goodness, Justice, etc, can be very powerful in opening minds to Reality (especially minds which utter statements laced with moral realism whilst claiming to be subjectivist!). However, the notion that Plato is somehow the saviour of modern science is rather difficult to uphold, given his notion that material things are said not to be substances. Also Fr Copleston and others have well summarised Aristotle's critique of the doctrine of Forms and some of the implications of Plato's formulation of it (concerning there being forms of, e.g. dog, negative things, non-existent things, etc). My naïve assumption is that Aristotle corrected Plato on forms, but went a little too far himself such that he forgets the non-mental and non-physical reality of the abstract universal (of course concerning God and the separated substances he has spoken), and hence needed to be synthesised with Plato by the Angelic Doctor. But I certainly agree that Plato illuminates the idea that our way of speaking about ethics even today necessitates the existence of abstract forms, which St Thomas has correctly located in the mind of God.

One other thing, concerning Daniel's post that Platonism is anti-materialist and anti-mechanistic: I think any claim that Aristotelianism leads to these things would be premised on a distortion of Aristotelianism, as Aristotle is quite clear that there is immaterial being and immaterial causes. Of course, might be said to be a problem that the First Mover is said to be a final cause rather than an efficient cause, but even then the immaterial soul of humans is both formal and efficient cause. Concerning nominalism it would also seem to me that such a move would be based on a distortion, even if it took St Thomas to complete the Aristotelian doctrine of universals.

However, one question I could pose - which I touched on above - would regard not the science of abstract universals like justice and goodness, but instead Aristotle's point in the Metaphysics that the notion of a Platonic science of material being is hopeless, since the failure of Plato to elaborate the connection between form and matter meant that any science in his name could have nothing to do with material being. This is a point that Fr Copleston calls the chorismos but I am not sure where this word comes from because I have only read - parts of - the text in English, in the excellent Dumb Ox translation of St Thomas' commentary (sadly its not a Latin-English version).

I am going on retreat for five days but would be happy to be challenged/re-educated/taken up on these points when I return.
Blessed be Jesus!
PS I would like to watch the video on the first page when I get back as well, as I had a conversation with my radical atheist friend about the reality of justice very recently.