"Thy will be done"

[Michael Wilson]

One doesn't directly choose pain; an illustration from everyday life is sufficient: The man who wants to see what his new sports car can do, doesn't will the "pain" of a speeding ticket, but the 'good' of the thrill of going fast; he esteems the good of going fast in his new car, greater than the evil of a ticket. The same for the man who cheats on his wife; he esteems the 'good' of this new relationship so much, that he is willing to risk the possibility of losing his wife; he doesn't will the 'evil' of divorce directly, but is willing to risk this possibility if he gets caught. The man who desires some created transitory good that is sinful, is willing to obtain the false 'good', even if it could possibly entail the loss of God's friendship even forever.

[TerrorDæmonum]

My initial response was to the original question, but this response is for the deeper theology of this question, for the sake of all who may read it. The bulk of the thread was dominated by very unorthodox and non-scholarly disputation about the Faith, but which was allowed to continue yet again on this board despite its stated purpose.

Saint Thomas Aquinas addresses the petitions and their suitability. Here are some of the most useful excerpts for this question for those who are able to understand.

Article 9. Whether the seven petitions of the Lord's Prayer are fittingly assigned?

Objection 1. It would seem that the seven petitions of the Lord's Prayer are not fittingly assigned. It is useless to ask for that to be hallowed which is always holy. But the name of God is always holy, according to Luke 1:49, "Holy is His name." Again, His kingdom is everlasting, according to Psalm 144:13, "Thy kingdom is a kingdom of all ages." Again, God's will is always fulfilled, according to Isaiah 46:10, "All My will shall be done." Therefore it is useless to ask for "the name of God to be hallowed," for "His kingdom to come," and for "His will to be done."

On the contrary, The authority of Christ, who composed this prayer, suffices.

I answer that, The Lord's Prayer is most perfect, because, as Augustine says (ad Probam Ep. cxxx, 12), "if we pray rightly and fittingly, we can say nothing else but what is contained in this prayer of our Lord." For since prayer interprets our desires, as it were, before God, then alone is it right to ask for something in our prayers when it is right that we should desire it. Now in the Lord's Prayer not only do we ask for all that we may rightly desire, but also in the order wherein we ought to desire them, so that this prayer not only teaches us to ask, but also directs all our affections. Thus it is evident that the first thing to be the object of our desire is the end, and afterwards whatever is directed to the end. Now our end is God towards Whom our affections tend in two ways: first, by our willing the glory of God, secondly, by willing to enjoy His glory. The first belongs to the love whereby we love God in Himself, while the second belongs to the love whereby we love ourselves in God. Wherefore the first petition is expressed thus: "Hallowed be Thy name," and the second thus: "Thy kingdom come," by which we ask to come to the glory of His kingdom.

To this same end a thing directs us in two ways: in one way, by its very nature, in another way, accidentally. Of its very nature the good which is useful for an end directs us to that end. Now a thing is useful in two ways to that end which is beatitude: in one way, directly and principally, according to the merit whereby we merit beatitude by obeying God, and in this respect we ask: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"; in another way instrumentally, and as it were helping us to merit, and in this respect we say: "Give us this day our daily bread," whether we understand this of the sacramental Bread, the daily use of which is profitable to man, and in which all the other sacraments are contained, or of the bread of the body, so that it denotes all sufficiency of food, as Augustine says (ad Probam, Ep. cxxx, 11), since the Eucharist is the chief sacrament, and bread is the chief food: thus in the Gospel of Matthew we read, "supersubstantial," i.e. "principal," as Jerome expounds it.

We are directed to beatitude accidentally by the removal of obstacles. Now there are three obstacles to our attainment of beatitude. First, there is sin, which directly excludes a man from the kingdom, according to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, etc., shall possess the kingdom of God"; and to this refer the words, "Forgive us our trespasses." Secondly, there is temptation which hinders us from keeping God's will, and to this we refer when we say: "And lead us not into temptation," whereby we do not ask not to be tempted, but not to be conquered by temptation, which is to be led into temptation. Thirdly, there is the present penal state which is a kind of obstacle to a sufficiency of life, and to this we refer in the words, "Deliver us from evil."

Reply to Objection 1. As Augustine says (De Serm. Dom. in Monte ii, 5), when we say, "Hallowed be Thy name, we do not mean that God's name is not holy, but we ask that men may treat it as a holy thing," and this pertains to the diffusion of God's glory among men. When we say, "Thy kingdom come, we do not imply that God is not reigning now," but "we excite in ourselves the desire for that kingdom, that it may come to us, and that we may reign therein," as Augustine says (ad Probam, Ep. cxxx, 11). The words, "Thy will be done rightly signify, 'May Thy commandments be obeyed' on earth as in heaven, i.e. by men as well as by angels" (De Serm. Dom. in Monte ii, 6). Hence these three petitions will be perfectly fulfilled in the life to come; while the other four, according to Augustine (Enchiridion cxv), belong to the needs of the present life.

And from Saint Augustine:

21. And therefore, after that petition where we say, "Your kingdom come," there follows, "Your will be done, as in heaven so in earth:" i.e., just as Your will is in the angels who are in heaven, so that they wholly cleave to You, and thoroughly enjoy You, no error beclouding their wisdom, no misery hindering their blessedness; so let it be done in Your saints who are on earth, and made from the earth, so far as the body is concerned, and who, although it is into a heavenly habitation and exchange, are yet to be taken from the earth. To this there is a reference also in that doxology of the angels, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men of goodwill:" so that when our goodwill has gone before, which follows Him that calls, the will of God is perfected in us, as it is in the heavenly angels; so that no antagonism stands in the way of our blessedness: and this is peace. "Your will be done" is also rightly understood in the sense of, Let obedience be rendered to Your precepts: "as in heaven so on earth," i.e. as by the angels so by men. For, that the will of God is done when His precepts are obeyed, the Lord Himself says, when He affirms, "My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me;" and often, "I came, not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me;" and when He says, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." And therefore, in those at least who do the will of God, the will of God is accomplished; not because they cause God to will, but because they do what He wills, i.e. they do according to His will.

[Justin Martyr]

Note: This post presumes that you're struggling with this in good faith and that your predominant fear is that at any moment you may mortally sin and go to hell

You're getting caught up in abstractions. If you choose to reject God because you might possibly go to hell, then it is a certainty that you'll go to hell. Rather, do all in your power to do God's will, and pray daily the Hanc Igitur:

"We beseech thee, O Lord, graciously to accept this oblation of our service as also of Thy whole family. Dispose our days in Thy peace, command us to be delivered from eternal damnation, and to be numbered among the flock of Thine elect. Through Christ Our Lord, Amen."

Nothing that that the World, the Flesh, and the Devil do can prevent God from infallibly ensuring the salvation of his elect, so pray daily that you are numbered among his elect, and work out your salvation with fear and trembling so as to make your election sure, and you will be saved. It's as simple as that.

From the Gospel according to Saint John:

"6:29  Jesus answered and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.
6:30  They said therefore to him: What sign therefore dost thou shew that we may see and may believe thee? What dost thou work?
6:31  Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
6:32  Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
6:33  For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven and giveth life to the world.
6:34  They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread.
6:35  And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life. He that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.
6:36  But I said unto you that you also have seen me, and you believe not.
6:37  All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
6:38  Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me.
6:39  Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.
6:40  And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.
6:41  The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven.
6:42  And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he: I came down from heaven?
6:43  Jesus therefore answered and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves.
6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.
6:45  It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father and hath learned cometh to me.
6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father: but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father.
6:47  Amen, amen, I say unto you: He that believeth in me hath everlasting life."

From the same Gospel:

"10:23  And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch.
10:24  The Jews therefore came round about him and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
10:25  Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.
10:26  But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
10:27  My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me.
10:28  And I give them life everlasting: and they shall not perish for ever. And no man shall pluck them out of my hand.
10:29  That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.
10:30  I and the Father are one."

Also, praying the Rosary is a great sign of predestination, according to the promises of Our Lady. Pray the rosary daily, place all your trust in Our Lady and Our Lord, and have faith in His grace.

[dellery]

I do not want Catholicism to be true. If Catholicism is true, then it's possible that I will be damned. I don't want that to be possible. (Aquinas said, "I cannot understand how anyone conscious of mortal sin can laugh or be merry." I say, "I can't understand how anyone can laugh or be merry while believing they could commit mortal sin at any moment.") Hypothetically, could one be a good Catholic (in a state of grace) while simultaneously wanting Catholicism to be false?

That's the only way I could revert to Catholicism. But I don't think it's possible to love God while wishing He weren't real. But I suppose you could be a good Catholic without loving God. You just need fear of Hell (imperfect contrition).

How can I pray "Thy will be done" if it's His will to allow eternal hell? I'd rather not be created than be created with even a small risk of hell. Life is not a gift, but a burden if I could sin at any time. Free will doesn't comfort me: it could spontaneously and unpredictably make (or continue to make) evil choices. It's like a die roll to me.

If I did become Catholic again, I feel like I'd be lying every time I utter "Thy will be done." I could only worship a universalist god. "To thine own self be true." -Polonius

I probably shouldn't be posting in this forum since I'm not interested in theology at all but...

There doesn't appear to be any contradiction with not wanting Catholicism to be true and acknowledging that it is.
The Truth is independent of ourselves and what we want it to be is irrelevant. The same goes for God's will, obviously. Praying "thy will be done" is not the same as agreeing with or liking the Divine Will. It is possible to accept, or resign yourself to an outcome you find completely disagreeable. Just as a hard truth we would rather not be does not change the fact it is the truth and cognitive dissonance can not change it, so goes that God may will something we find to be totally unacceptable, and like that truth we would rather not accept, at the end of the day we have to acknowledge that how we feel about it doesn't really matter.

Do you ever have objections on how the Earth orbits the Sun and opinions on how it could do this better?

[MaximGun]

I cheated on my sports car, by driving my wife around the bend.

[Xavier]

Dear Michael, if you are worried about going to Hell, there are many simple solutions: Make the 9 First Friday or 5 Five First Saturday Holy Communions, Pray the Rosary, Wear the Scapular, and then according to God's Promise, you will die in Grace and be saved. This fear is thus no reason to lapse from the Faith, but to live a holy life.

More below: "Our Lord said, Be thou faithful until death: and I will give thee the Crown of Life (Apoc 2:10). Claim that Promise! Look forward to it in joyful hope and eager anticipation! If we are faithful unto death, Our Lord will, according to His Promise, give us the Crown of Life!

That should make us happy! We have something glorious to look forward to. Let us complete the 9 First Fridays to the Sacred Heart, the 5 First Saturdays to the Immaculate Heart, the Great Double Novena to the Twin Hearts together, pray the Rosary every day, wear the Scapular, and then we know that we will die in Grace, with the Sacraments of the Church, receive Final Perseverance and go to Heaven. We ought to live a blessed and happy life expecting this!

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And should we evangelize? Of course! It is well said, and piously believed, that each soul we help bring to Jesus will be like a beautiful jewel on our eternal crown! What a thought! It should motivate us to try and bring multitudes to Jesus in the course of our lifetime. Each good work done with faith in Christ, by the Grace of God, merits an eternal reward. Truly, we are so blessed!" https://onepeterfive.com/5-good-reasons-to-become-or-remain-a-catholic-christian/

[Justin Martyr]

Do you ever have objections on how the Earth orbits the Sun and opinions on how it could do this better?

Probably not the best example to use on a trad forum 

[dellery]

Do you ever have objections on how the Earth orbits the Sun and opinions on how it could do this better?

Probably not the best example to use on a trad forum 

It took me a minute to figure out what you were referring to.

Do Geo-centrists really exist? I've only seen them online and assumed it was some kind of deliberate trolling.

[Justin Martyr]

Do you ever have objections on how the Earth orbits the Sun and opinions on how it could do this better?

Probably not the best example to use on a trad forum 

It took me a minute to figure out what you were referring to.

Do Geo-centrists really exist? I've only seen them online and assumed it was some kind of deliberate trolling.

If you look through some old threads on the forum you can find them.

[TheSaintsAreComing]

Do you ever have objections on how the Earth orbits the Sun and opinions on how it could do this better?

Probably not the best example to use on a trad forum 

It took me a minute to figure out what you were referring to.

Do Geo-centrists really exist? I've only seen them online and assumed it was some kind of deliberate trolling.

Robert Sungenis is an example of someone who's an outspoken proponent of Geocentrism and has written and produced several works arguing for it

[dellery]

Do you ever have objections on how the Earth orbits the Sun and opinions on how it could do this better?

Probably not the best example to use on a trad forum 

It took me a minute to figure out what you were referring to.

Do Geo-centrists really exist? I've only seen them online and assumed it was some kind of deliberate trolling.

Robert Sungenis is an example of someone who's an outspoken proponent of Geocentrism and has written and produced several works arguing for it

Sungenis looks like a troll to me. I have seen people buying into his theories online, but I'm questioning weather or not these people exist in real life.

[Michael]

Setting aside the Our Father prayer, it still seems odd that God would create us in a state of affairs wherein the truth is absolutely horrible but we have to accept it and learn to like it. That's abusive. If God loves me, He wants what's best for me. I would not consent to being born if one possibility was eternal hell, so the loving thing to do would be to refrain from creating me. Instead, he creates me, and if I don't worship Him despite being disgusted by the way He does things, I go to Hell forever. It's a rotten deal.

God is basically asking me to lie to myself. "Love your neighbor as thyself" implies that I should love myself, and hence be honest with myself. Deep down, infernalism disgusts me, but God wants me to embrace a system where I'm okay with the possibility of eternal hell...but I can't be ok with that. Universalism is the only theistic view that makes sense.

[Justin Martyr]

Setting aside the Our Father prayer, it still seems odd that God would create us in a state of affairs wherein the truth is absolutely horrible but we have to accept it and learn to like it. That's abusive. If God loves me, He wants what's best for me. I would not consent to being born if one possibility was eternal hell, so the loving thing to do would be to refrain from creating me. Instead, he creates me, and if I don't worship Him despite being disgusted by the way He does things, I go to Hell forever. It's a rotten deal.

God is basically asking me to lie to myself. "Love your neighbor as thyself" implies that I should love myself, and hence be honest with myself. Deep down, infernalism disgusts me, but God wants me to embrace a system where I'm okay with the possibility of eternal hell...but I can't be ok with that. Universalism is the only theistic view that makes sense.

For what it's worth, if God so chose He could elect even all the world. The salvation of every soul is within His power. "...For who resisteth his will?..." (Romans 9:19). It is a possibility, even if I do not believe it to be so. However, it is within the pale of orthodoxy, strictly speaking, to hold that all might possibly be saved.

For when we consider our sins, how is any soul at all saved? Yet, when we consider His infinite and merciful charity towards us, even to the point of death on a tree, how can any soul perish? This is a great paradox, and a great mystery! "...it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...he hath mercy on whom he will. And whom he will, he hardeneth..." (Romans 9:16,18)

Cast all your cares and trust upon the Lord, and do all in your power to co-operate with his grace; and you shall be saved. Given your particular struggle, you may find peace in reading the works of St. Gregory Nazianzen, St. Clement Alexandrinus, St. Gregory of Nyssa,  St. Basil the Great, and especially Origen Adamantius.

And keep always in mind the beating heart of our wonderous faith, the foundation upon which all truly Christian and noetic wisdom is built, the narrow gate through which we set on the strait way of divinization:
"??????? ?????? ?? ??????, ?????? ??????? ???????, ??? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???????????!"

Christ is risen from the dead, by death trampling death, and to those in the tombs granting life!

[Mono no aware]

Universalism is the only theistic view that makes sense.

Wouldn't an indifferent god make more sense than a universalist god?  If there was a god who wanted everyone in heaven, then presumably we would already be in heaven, and this world of suffering would never have been created.  But given the existence of this vale of tears, it is eminently apparent that its creator has willed temporal suffering.  So there is no reason to suppose that he does not will eternal suffering as well. 

An indifferent god, or a cruel god, or a pair of gods in a cosmic duel between good and evil, or the God of the Hebrews—these all make more sense than a universalist god.  For a universalist god, the entirety of creation would be gratuitous and unnecessary.  Universalism is the theistic view which makes the least amount of sense (to my lights).  It requires invoking more mystery than any of the other competing theologies.

[Justin Martyr]

Universalism is the only theistic view that makes sense.

Wouldn't an indifferent god make more sense than a universalist god?  If there was a god who wanted everyone in heaven, then presumably we would already be in heaven, and this world of suffering would never have been created.  But given the existence of this vale of tears, it is eminently apparent that its creator has willed temporal suffering.  So there is no reason to suppose that he does not will eternal suffering as well. 

An indifferent god, or a cruel god, or a pair of gods in a cosmic duel between good and evil, or the God of the Hebrews—these all make more sense than a universalist god.  For a universalist god, the entirety of creation would be gratuitous and unnecessary.  Universalism is the theistic view which makes the least amount of sense (to my lights).  It requires invoking more mystery than any of the other competing theologies.

It wouldn't make sense if one is operating with a more modern and mechanical cosmology. It can make sense in a platonic cosmology.

There is also the other aspect to consider; namely, that the love and glory of the saints rendered to God is of a more intense and perfect degree in those whom have been more purified in this carnal and veiled world; as it is written: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead: Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein you shalt greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations: That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ. Whom having not seen, you love: in whom also now though you see him not, you believe and, believing, shall rejoice with joy unspeakable and glorified; Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Thus, God permits all to fall in Adam, that all might be saved more perfectly in Christ. For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just. Now the law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound. That as sin hath reigned to death: so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.