"Thy will be done"

[Michael]

I do not want Catholicism to be true. If Catholicism is true, then it's possible that I will be damned. I don't want that to be possible. (Aquinas said, "I cannot understand how anyone conscious of mortal sin can laugh or be merry." I say, "I can't understand how anyone can laugh or be merry while believing they could commit mortal sin at any moment.") Hypothetically, could one be a good Catholic (in a state of grace) while simultaneously wanting Catholicism to be false?

That's the only way I could revert to Catholicism. But I don't think it's possible to love God while wishing He weren't real. But I suppose you could be a good Catholic without loving God. You just need fear of Hell (imperfect contrition).

How can I pray "Thy will be done" if it's His will to allow eternal hell? I'd rather not be created than be created with even a small risk of hell. Life is not a gift, but a burden if I could sin at any time. Free will doesn't comfort me: it could spontaneously and unpredictably make (or continue to make) evil choices. It's like a die roll to me.

If I did become Catholic again, I feel like I'd be lying every time I utter "Thy will be done." I could only worship a universalist god. "To thine own self be true." -Polonius

[Kaesekopf]

Please recall this is the Sacred Sciences subforum, and please engage with that in mind.  (Not necessarily to the OP, for the record.)

[TerrorDæmonum]

I am assuming you know the basic Catechism in writing this. This post is meant to be edifying and encouraging, and does not have many direct citations. It is not a theological argument.

It must be first established we receive knowledge through two means: naturally through our senses and reason and supernaturally from God.

Let us put supernatural knowledge (revelation, the Sacred Science) aside for the moment. What do you know? That you are alive and exist, that your body will die, that you can suffer in many ways and are likely to suffer in some ways. This is all regardless of what you want: this is how things are. Do you deny this? Do you think we can say "I don't want cavities and dental problems to be real, therefore, I deny dentistry and will not go to a dentist"?

No, that would be ludicrous. The same goes for any temporal or carnal woe we may have: we do not like them, but we do not deny the solutions unless we are mad (in extreme denial, delusional, or otherwise unreasonable).

Now, for the supernatural revelations you are rejecting, what are they exactly? Why would eternal life be any different from our temporal life? Why would your consciousness not suffer without your body considering the woeful state you are in now?

With this in mind, the revelations we received from God through the Church are about our salvation. God's will is to save us from these things, to bring us to eternal life and joy with him, purified from the evils that afflict us from within.

The means of this are through the Church. We have the sacraments for this. Think of what that means: we have easy access to sure means of receiving God's grace in our imperfect state. We do not deserve this.

If your fear of Hell is the the reason you deny the Church, how is this not irrationally rejecting the one way of being saved from what you know to be inevitable? Should it not drive you to do what you can to avoid that fate?

Consider the same prayer that you have cited. How does it end? Deliver us from evil.

I suggest you review a basic catechism, a Baltimore Catechism or Catechism of Pius X, and really study it from start to finish. Do not get distracted by deeper theology or anxieties about the future. Focus on what we have been given and how wonderful it is. And consider how easy it is to be freed from evil if we only persevere in the faith!

For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us.

If you fear dental problems, see a dentist regularly and do what they say. If you fear hell, profess the Creed, do good, avoid evil, receive the sacraments humbly frequently, and persevere.

The Third Petition

19 Q. What do we ask in the Third Petition: Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven?
A. In the Third Petition: Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, we beg the grace to do the will of God in all things by obeying His Commandments as promptly as the Angels and Saints obey Him in Heaven; and we also beg the grace to correspond to divine inspirations and to live resigned to the will of God should He send us tribulations.

20 Q. Is it necessary to do the will of God?
A. It is as necessary to do the will of God as it is to work out our salvation, because Jesus Christ has said that they alone who have done the will of His Father shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

21 Q. In what way can we know the will of God?
A. We can know the will of God especially by means of the Church and of the spiritual superiors appointed by God to guide us along the way of salvation; we may also learn His most holy will from the divine inspirations that come to us and from the very surroundings in which the Lord has placed us.

22 Q. Should we always recognise the will of God in adversity as well as in prosperity?
A. Both in prosperity and adversity we should always recognise the will of God, who directs or permits all things for our good.

[james03]

How can I pray "Thy will be done" if it's His will to allow eternal hell? I'd rather not be created than be created with even a small risk of hell. Life is not a gift, but a burden if I could sin at any time. Free will doesn't comfort me: it could spontaneously and unpredictably make (or continue to make) evil choices. It's like a die roll to me.

I'll give you credit for honesty.  Most people are scared of free will, even when they complain about the Sovereignty of God.  They don't want the responsibility that goes along with free will.

You're at a Catholic site, so obviously you have knowledge.  You can choose.  If you choose God, you can go to heaven.  If you choose to reject him, then take some heart because God will allow you to curse Him for all eternity in hell.

I suggest you choose the former, but it is up to you.  You have free will.

As for me, I'm Catholic.  I find life to be full of joy.  I wake up and am thankful for the wonderful fact of my existence, knowing that the loving God is working to save me through His grace.

[Michael]

The Catholic Church's claims are of an unseen order, unlike the other matters you mentioned (dentistry, eating) which can be empirically verified. The issue is: I hate the idea that I could possibly go to hell forever, so how could I love a God who wills that? I think it's evil.

I don't understand how anyone could love a God who wills for them to possibly go to hell, who forces them to take an infinite risk. And I don't think anyone does. As David Bentley Hart says, people believe that they believe in eternal hell, but they don't believe it.

"If you fear dental problems, see a dentist regularly and do what they say. If you fear hell, profess the Creed, do good, avoid evil, receive the sacraments humbly frequently, and persevere."

Except for persevering, none of those items guarantees I'd be saved. I'd be living in constant anxiety, always aware I could sin at any time. How could I love a God like that? With perseverance, you're just saying I can avoid hell by avoiding hell.

"Focus on what we have been given and how wonderful it is." It's not wonderful to think eternal hell is possible.

"And consider how easy it is to be freed from evil if we only persevere in the faith!"

Right now, one can't presume they are of the elect. So how is this any solace? It's like saying: if you get to heaven, you get to heaven. That doesn't change the horrible state of possibly going to hell.

[Michael]

"As for me, I'm Catholic.  I find life to be full of joy." I don't find self-reporting to be all that trustworthy, but let's say you are joyful. There are non-Catholics who claim to be joyful. The question is: does it make sense to be joyful knowing that you could possibly go to hell? When one prays, "Thy will be done," that implies that one approves of said will: that one approves of their own possible damnation. Though anyone can say it, does anyone mean it? If I love myself, would I consent to being born in a world where hell is possible? I don't think so. So if I love myself, I can't approve of my possible eternal misery, and I can't approve of a putative God's will being done if it includes such misery.

"I suggest you choose the former, but it is up to you.  You have free will."

There's no way to guarantee that my free will will make the right choice. It feels like randomness.

"They don't want the responsibility that goes along with free will." One can sympathize. They never asked to be born. They never asked to have the capacity to do evil.

From a Catholic priest who kept his Atheism secret: "[If] God Himself was not able to render human nature sinless, what right had He to punish men for not being sinless?" -Jean Meslier

[Miriam_M]

Michael,
It is not about chance. The individual believer makes his own fate by the overall moral choices he makes in his lifetime.  All of us, except for those truly insane or under some other mental disability which deprives them of decision-making responsibility, are accountable for how we choose to respond to life's challenges and to other people. 

God does not "will us to go to Hell."  That's an impossibility because there can be no evil in God; otherwise, why love such a being or why submit in obedience to such a being? To "will someone to go to Hell" is itself a great evil.  For example, if we wish that for our fellow man we are gravely culpable for that deliberately embraced thought.

Rather, by the choices we make every day, we are willing ourselves to a particular destination. That does not mean that our wrong choices are irredeemable; that is, while they are irrevocable once we make them, repenting for them and repairing them through opposite acts of goodness shows God where we wish our true destination to be, not in Hell but in Heaven. Since God is pure love and can only desire that we share in His joy and goodness, He wills for our destination to be Heaven.

[Michael]

I didn't complain about God willing for people to go to hell. I complained about God willing for people to possibly go to hell. That itself is something hard to swallow. I'm not okay with possibly going to hell, so I can't be okay with One whose will is that possibility.

[Miriam_M]

I didn't complain about God willing for people to go to hell. I complained about God willing for people to possibly go to hell. That itself is something hard to swallow. I'm not okay with possibly going to hell, so I can't be okay with One whose will is that possibility.

Love is not slavery; this is the point.  Nor is love puppetry.  Love includes within the definition cherishing the freedom of the other, which implies possibilities, good and bad.  I'm sure you've heard of romantic relationships wherein one member behaves coercively toward the other:  that's control, not love.

If God did not permit us (make it possible for us) to decide by our own choices to be isolated from His loving presence, forever, or to enjoy His love forever, it would not be love but control and domination -- a puppet show.  God created us as beings with inherent dignity and full freedom of moral choice.

I could understand if it were impossible to get to Heaven -- that is, we would have to be spotless, perfect, never make a wrong choice or if we did, we would seal our own damnation forever. But that is not what salvation and redemption are all about. Through His son, we draw from God's mercy through acknowledgement of our wrongdoing and repentance for it, which allows us to take control of our destiny, so to speak, through better choices.

[TerrorDæmonum]

I did not say continue to dwell on your perspective of Hell and your judgement of doctrine. Continuing this line of reasoning is not going to lead to any resolution. There are many theological works concerning the nature of Hell, God's justice, and resolving issues of grace and free will. But none of those things will help, because the issue is not the doctrine, it is your reaction to it.

This is not the first free will and Hell focused thread you've made, and I do not think there will be any resolution from continuing to post on a forum on it.

You might be suffering from some sort of psychological disturbance which causes anxiety and related issues, and that might explain why you seem to think your free will is random, disassociated from yourself.

As for the theology, there is no argument against choosing fear and hate. Hell is eternal separation from God, and we have a yearning to be with God. Rejecting this now is choosing Hell. Our perception and intellect are clouded in this life, but after, he veil is lifted. You cannot hide from anything then.

Hell is full of created beings who are there forever not because God is evil, but because God is good and the damned cannot accept this. They flee from God, and immerse themselves in their own misery.

The doctrine of Hell is repugnant to you, but do you not see that it is part of God's perfection? It is not a creation of God: it is a place that those who have rejected God can continue to exist apart from Him.

God does not create evil: evil is the absence of good. I know people who are afraid of their own existence tend to prefer annihilation, but that is a destruction of what is good, and why would God will that?

I could write more on the theology, but I am not going to. The problem is not with theological understanding, but in rejection of truth and being unreasonable. The idea that a created being says to God "I don't like it!" and chooses to exist apart from God is exactly where Hell comes from.

But as I wrote, I suspect you may have psychological hindrances that need resolution, and mental illness is not a sin. God knows our hearts and there are no accidents. You will receive what is entirely Just, and God offers more than that. Do you really want to reject a God which not only offers salvation to the few, but to all who would accept it, and gives us easy means to obtain salvation without any extraordinary effort on our part? We do not have to prove ourselves to God. We cannot do anything that would deserve salvation, but God has provided on our behalf.

1. Who made us?
God made us.

2. Who is God?
God is the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect, who made all things and keeps them in existence.

3. Why did God make us?
God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.

4. What must we do to gain the happiness of heaven?
To gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world.

5. From whom do we learn to know, love, and serve God?
We learn to know, love, and serve God from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who teaches us through the Catholic Church.

6. Where do we find the chief truths taught by Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church?
We find the chief truths taught by Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church in the Apostles' Creed.

7. Say the Apostles' Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

[John Lamb]

I complained about God willing for people to possibly go to hell.

Nobody wills a possibility. We accept the possible outcomes of our choices. God does not will the possibility of hell; he accepts (if you like, begrudgingly) that some people may use their created freedom to turn away from him and lose themselves. Are parents evil for accepting the possibility that their children may suffer and die? Do parents will suffering and death upon their children merely by having them? Your line of thinking leads to anti-natalism and nihilism. God doesn't want to see anyone go to hell, anymore than a parent wants to see their child suffer. All our choices may contain evil possibilities, though the evil itself is the furthest thing from our intention: nobody gets in a car with the intention of being in a car crash.

[Michael]

Miriam_M,

I don't think love requires the ability to permanently reject God. The only worthwhile love is one where the lover sees to it that the beloved is happy. In Christianity (besides universalism), God creates you without your permission and allows you to be eternally miserable because your will unpredictably made a bad choice. "Worship me, or be damned" sounds coercive, like being held at gunpoint. If that's love, I don't think it's rational to want it. I don't think it makes sense to want something if it implies you could be miserable forever.

[Michael]

Pæniteo,

"There are many theological works..." And many atheological works. And many universalist works.

"But none of those things will help, because the issue is not the doctrine, it is your reaction to it."

I'm arguing that my reaction makes sense and that yours doesn't. Loving God means loving what He does, which means loving the fact that you could possibly go to hell. It means that you want God to exist. But one wants what is in one's best interest. Is it in my best interest to be thrown into a game of chance, and be tortured forever because my unpredictable free will chanced to reject God rather than accept Him? No. I'd rather not exist or exist in a universalist world.

The problem with free will is that it's unpredictable. You don't know what you will cause until you're causing it. The only means for making the right choice (power of free will) is also the means for making the wrong choice. There is no means available to one that only leads to the good choice. The will is set on "do ?", and one can't change it to "do A" or "do B."

If 2 events can occur from the same source, then it appears that nothing about the source explains why we got one event in particular.

[TerrorDæmonum]

I'm arguing that my reaction makes sense and that yours doesn't.

That is your choice and I do not know why you made this choice, but I do know that arguing against the Faith obstinately on this board is inappropriate.

...because my unpredictable free...

The problem with free will is that it's unpredictable. You don't know what you will cause until you're causing it.

This is a bizarre line of reasoning. The very fact you exercise your free will is enough to show that you are very confused, overthinking, and probably experiencing some sort of disorder. Why do you think your own choices are "unpredictable"? Do you not have a sense of agency? Do you want double predestination or determinism, to be completely out of control of anything, and just an automaton going through the motions?

[TerrorDæmonum]

"Worship me, or be damned" sounds coercive, like being held at gunpoint. If that's love, I don't think it's rational to want it.

Friend: "Eat food or you'll starve. Here is some food for free if you will just accept it."

You: "That sounds coercive that I'll starve without food. I will not eat if that is the case. It is not rational to accept what we need."

God is our Last End. An eternity separated from God is Hell. Would it not be coercive for God to force beings who reject Him to stand His presence for eternity?