Curious to see your thoughts on how the current Church crisis will end.
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends
How This Crisis Ends
Any knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that the Catholic Church is currently in a crisis, the effects of which have been staggering. If one adds up the decline in numbers of baptisms, marriages, and vocations, coupled with the silent apostasy of millions of lapsed and "former" Catholics since the end of Vatican II, the figures would be shocking. Many words have been written about the causes of the crisis and volumes published documenting every last detail of the destruction it has caused. However, to my knowledge, little has been written attempting to explain how the crisis might one day successfully be resolved.
As with most Church crises in the past such as the Arian Crisis and the Great Western Schism, it was hard for Catholics living in those times to envision a way out, and indeed many died not knowing what eventual resolution might take place. History has, of course, shown us how these crises were resolved, but the crisis we face now, like all true crises, is unique and has no exact precedent. Thus, the future is uncertain. We may be tempted, as Catholics in the past no doubt were, to think that our crisis may become permanent, to think extreme and theologically dangerous measures are needed to resolve it, or to, God forbid, throw up our hands in frustration believing the Church has somehow failed.
In this article, I will first show why various proposed solutions to the crisis are deficient or unworkable and then I will attempt to propose what a successful resolution might eventually look like.
Read the rest here (https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends).
I don't know how the crisis ends, but the "Sedevacantist Solutions" section of your article is a mess, I'm sorry to say.
Some comments:
QuoteAs a general rule, I've found sedevacantist leaders and public figures do not spend much time proposing solutions to the crisis.
Why is it our job to propose solutions?
QuoteThey, are instead, more focused on converting Catholics to the sedevacantist position, which is, essentially, that all Vatican II popes have been invalid and, therefore, not "true popes."
Some do this, and some don't. Really, it's a mixed bag.
QuoteSedevacantist apologists typically deflect the issue of resolving the crisis by arguing that any solutions outside sedevacantism necessarily require the admission of a defected Church, which, of course, is impossible.
I don't see why sedevacantism implies that the Church has defected, even though this is often asserted online. In my opinion though, the non-sedevacantist position does entail a defected Church, because it requires that one think the Church cannot be trusted to give us the correct religion.
QuoteI will address this argument later. However, the question that these sedevacantist leaders must ask themselves is as follows. Let's assume a hypothetical situation where sedevacantist apologists are wildly successful and convert 90% of Catholics to their position, what then?
Sedevacantists who attempt to explain the crisis by arguing that every pope and bishop since Vatican II lost their office for heresy are in a quandary.
This is not my position. I do not believe every see in the world is vacant.
QuoteThis position leaves no way to elect a new pope since there would no longer be any College of Cardinals.
I'm not persuaded that the College of Cardinals is in fact extinct. But even if it is, it's not as if the Church would be unable to elect a pope. Go see what Bellarmine says on a papal election without cardinals.
QuoteIn fact, this is the very reason why the sedevacantists do not currently elect a new pope themselves. They rightly admit that they have no such authority or designation to do so. So where does this leave the 90% of Catholics who just became convinced of sedevacantism in our hypothetical? It basically leaves them at a dead end.
Seemingly a dead end, perhaps. But so what? It's not as if calling Francis the Vicar of Christ somehow makes things any better. On the contrary, that would make everything immeasurably worse.
The fact is, I don't have to solve every mysterious aspect of this crisis to be comfortable in my judgment that Francis isn't the pope.
Have a blessed Easter!
C.J. Stated:
QuoteAny knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that the Catholic Church is currently in a crisis, the effects of which have been staggering
Really? 99.99% of Catholics deny that there is a "crisis"; how do you determine who is a "knowlegeable Catholic" from one that is not? The "Pope"; the Cardinals; the Bishops; the doctors of theology; heads of universities etc. etc etc. All claim (with honorable exception) that everything in the Church is fine.
Then we have your take on Ecclesiology:
QuoteAll of this, without requiring His faithful to believe in any outlandish sedevacantist theory or to believe in the erroneous non-infallible contradictory claptrap that has been emanating from the cracks of St. Peters since the crisis began. For until the crisis is finally resolved through infallible declarations we have an obligation to be obedient to the constant teachings of the popes and Tradition, which cannot be lead astray, over the non-infallible authentic magisterium of a later pope who is contradicting it. This was true in the time of Pope John XXII and it is still true today.ix
So the See of Peter and the Bishops united with it can issue: "Contradictory claptrap'' and can lead the Catholic faithful "astray" even in their "non-infallible authentic magisterium";
I would be interested in what your source is for the above information?
Here for example is Pius IX in "Qui Nuper" on the obligation of Catholics to submit to the "non-infallible" claptrap of the Magisterium:
Quote(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Qui Nuper, n. 3)
In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the [First] Vatican Council declared are to be believed "with Catholic and divine faith." But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the Apostolic See.
Or in "Quanta Cura"
QuoteQuanta Cura, Encyclical of Pope Pius IX, 1864
"Nor can we pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that "without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to concern the Church's general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogma of faith and morals." But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church."
As Leo XIII explained in refuting the Americanist errors, the "See of Peter ever remains free from error"
QuoteIn fact, only a miracle of that divine power could preserve the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, from blemish in the holiness of Her doctrine, law, and end in the midst of the flood of corruption and lapses of her members. Her doctrine, law and end have produced an abundant harvest. The faith and holiness of her children have brought forth the most salutary fruits. Here is another proof of her divine life: in spite of a great number of pernicious opinions and great variety of errors (as well as the vast army of rebels) the Church remains immutable and constant, "as the pillar and foundation of truth", in professing one identical doctrine, in receiving the same Sacraments, in her divine constitution, government, and morality....
The solution is relatively easy, but politically impossible. Basically it is to abandon the lie and tell the truth. The lie is that the Traditional Latin Rite is the "extraordinary" form of the Latin Rite. This is a lie.
What we have is 2 different rites. The Traditional Latin Rite and the Common Rite or Vulgar Rite. The solution is easy, declare the 2 Rites as separate, and appoint bishops and a patriarch for the Traditional Latin Rite. Identical to the set up that Eastern Rites have. After that, the Vulgar Rite will die out and the Traditional Latin Rite will become the majority Rite. Eventually we elect a Pope and the reforms can take place.
This is politically impossible because the current hierarchy has a burning hatred of the Catholic Faith and of Jesus Christ, so they would never agree to allowing a vibrant Traditional Latin Rite to take root.
So we will continue as the woman who fled into the wilderness.
Being intellectually honest, I hold that Bergoglio is not the Pope which makes me a sede, so it is more complex than this. But I'm going with the assumption of Francis being our Pope.
Answering the question straight up:
The crisis ends after 1/3 of the population is killed in the war that started in the Euphrates region and anti-christ is overthrown. That will be the end of the crisis.
Quote from: james03 on April 04, 2021, 09:21:00 PM
The solution is relatively easy, but politically impossible. Basically it is to abandon the lie and tell the truth. The lie is that the Traditional Latin Rite is the "extraordinary" form of the Latin Rite. This is a lie.
What we have is 2 different rites. The Traditional Latin Rite and the Common Rite or Vulgar Rite. The solution is easy, declare the 2 Rites as separate, and appoint bishops and a patriarch for the Traditional Latin Rite. Identical to the set up that Eastern Rites have. After that, the Vulgar Rite will die out and the Traditional Latin Rite will become the majority Rite. Eventually we elect a Pope and the reforms can take place.
This is politically impossible because the current hierarchy has a burning hatred of the Catholic Faith and of Jesus Christ, so they would never agree to allowing a vibrant Traditional Latin Rite to take root.
So we will continue as the woman who fled into the wilderness.
Being intellectually honest, I hold that Bergoglio is not the Pope which makes me a sede, so it is more complex than this. But I'm going with the assumption of Francis being our Pope.
We have more than bi ritual chaos. Just as the modernists are sucking the TLM movement dry with their wickedness, the schimatics/russia is sucking our eastern uniate brethren dry. And, we are just as far from them as we are from our own problems. The only liturgical solution to this crisis is one rite with many languages. Right now we have many rites, with many languages. Pre vatican 2 we essentially had one rite one language. None of those prevented this collapse. The worst of all the scenarios is one language, many rites. That is the globalist's wet dream. The only solution is its polar opposite, which is one rite, many languages.
QuoteJust as the modernists are sucking the TLM movement dry with their wickedness,
Not seeing it. We are entering the second growth wave. The problem is the Boomers. The Trad movement was a "Silent Generation" / "Gen X" phenomenon. Very few boomers, and very few boomer kids. The kids of Gen X are getting to marrying age and I'm seeing a ton of weddings and baptisms, which will only increase over the next 15 years. The boomers are stuck in the vulgar rite, and their kids aren't Catholic.
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:26:18 PMRite now we have many rites
:rofl:
What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?
"Serves you rite!"
Quote from: clau clau on April 04, 2021, 10:43:08 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:26:18 PMRite now we have many rites
:rofl:
What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?
"Serves you rite!"
It is called a typo. Have you never been to the novus ordo? It is different with every priest. The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite. But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.
The Conclusion of the OP article.
QuoteConclusion
In the final analysis, a future pope could work to implement these newly defined dogmas as Trent did, by mandating disciplines, liturgical and otherwise, to reinforce the opposite of the neo-modernist errors. A future pope could also wreak havoc on the 5th column of liberal priests, bishops, and religious who wear the garb of the Church while at the same time working for Her destruction. In fact, the very first thing a future Catholic pope should do is to gut the College of Cardinals. At the very first moment of his election, this future pope should immediately remove every single cardinal so much as suspected of heterodoxy and replace them with truly Catholic cardinals who are loyal to tradition. This would ensure that the left would be locked out of the papacy, God willing, for a very long time, if not hopefully forever.
When the glorious day comes where a future pope infallibly condemns all of the widespread errors that plague us in our present time, we can imagine it might sound something like the glorious words of Pope Leo X in Exsurge Domine, where he first condemned the errors of Martin Luther. May Pope Leo's plea to Heaven and the Saints that began this holy document 500 years ago become our fervent prayer today:
Arise, O Lord, and judge your own cause. Remember your reproaches to those who are filled with foolishness all through the day. Listen to our prayers, for foxes have arisen seeking to destroy the vineyard whose winepress you alone have trod. When you were about to ascend to your Father, you committed the care, rule, and administration of the vineyard, an image of the triumphant church, to Peter, as the head and your vicar and his successors. The wild boar from the forest seeks to destroy it and every wild beast feeds upon it.
Rise, Peter, and fulfill this pastoral office divinely entrusted to you as mentioned above. Give heed to the cause of the holy Roman Church, mother of all churches and teacher of the faith, whom you by the order of God, have consecrated by your blood. Against the Roman Church, you warned, lying teachers are rising, introducing ruinous sects, and drawing upon themselves speedy doom. Their tongues are fire, a restless evil, full of deadly poison. They have bitter zeal, contention in their hearts, and boast and lie against the truth.
We beseech you also, Paul, to arise. It was you that enlightened and illuminated the Church by your doctrine and by a martyrdom like Peter's. For now a new Porphyry rises who, as the old once wrongfully assailed the holy apostles, now assails the holy pontiffs, our predecessors.
Rebuking them, in violation of your teaching, instead of imploring them, he is not ashamed to assail them, to tear at them, and when he despairs of his cause, to stoop to insults. He is like the heretics "whose last defense," as Jerome says, "is to start spewing out a serpent's venom with their tongue when they see that their causes are about to be condemned, and spring to insults when they see they are vanquished." For although you have said that there must be heresies to test the faithful, still they must be destroyed at their very birth by your intercession and help, so they do not grow or wax strong like your wolves. Finally, let the whole church of the saints and the rest of the universal church arise. Some, putting aside her true interpretation of Sacred Scripture, are blinded in mind by the father of lies. Wise in their own eyes, according to the ancient practice of heretics, they interpret these same Scriptures otherwise than the Holy Spirit demands, inspired only by their own sense of ambition, and for the sake of popular acclaim, as the Apostle declares. In fact, they twist and adulterate the Scriptures. As a result, according to Jerome, "It is no longer the Gospel of Christ, but a man's, or what is worse, the devil's."
Let all this holy Church of God, I say, arise, and with the blessed apostles intercede with almighty God to purge the errors of His sheep, to banish all heresies from the lands of the faithful, and be pleased to maintain the peace and unity of His holy Church.x
I'm afraid to get the future Catholic pope that the first paragraph above is calling for, to gut the College of Cardinals, we are literally going to have to call down Sts. Peter and Paul, as Pope Leo X mentioned in Exsurge Domine. We will never get the future Catholic pope to gut the College of Cardinals with the current College of Cardinals that we have. The deck is stacked. So how does this crisis end? Nothing will end it other than Divine Intervention.
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 04, 2021, 10:43:08 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:26:18 PMRite now we have many rites
:rofl:
What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?
"Serves you rite!"
It is called a typo. Have you never been to the novus ordo? It is different with every priest. The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite. But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.
I regard the Novus Ordo as the worship of a false religion, so I do not attend it.
If there's a wedding or funeral of a loved one, I would apply the relevant moral theology principles. But it's not as if I'm going to turn up at the local Novus parish on a normal Sunday.
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 04, 2021, 10:43:08 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:26:18 PMRite now we have many rites
:rofl:
What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?
"Serves you rite!"
It is called a typo. Have you never been to the novus ordo? It is different with every priest. The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite. But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.
I know it was a typo. I just found it amusing. It wasn't a criticism.
Thanks for posting your Remnant piece, Chris.
I think we are probably entering the time of Antichrist and that our Hope is with Our Lady Queen of Angels and the Lord of Armies.
Quote from: mikemac on April 04, 2021, 11:17:11 PM
I'm afraid to get the future Catholic pope that the first paragraph above is calling for, to gut the College of Cardinals, we are literally going to have to call down Sts. Peter and Paul, as Pope Leo X mentioned in Exsurge Domine. We will never get the future Catholic pope to gut the College of Cardinals with the current College of Cardinals that we have. The deck is stacked. So how does this crisis end? Nothing will end it other than Divine Intervention.
I agree that we can expect the College of Cardinals to elect "one of their own" and due to the nature of papal appointments we would expect this to be a liberal. But sometimes men change after becoming pope. Conversion is always a possibility. Or sometimes, a man who has avoided publicly taking sides gets elected (as a compromise) and finally reveals his true thoughts.
In a sense, these scenarios could be seen as Divine Intervention, so I suppose I agree with you on that too. This article really impressed on me the importance of praying for the pope and the papacy. I think Chris Jackson made a good case that proper exercise of papal authority is a realistic path to solving the Crisis.
Quote from: Chris Jackson on April 04, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
Curious to see your thoughts on how the current Church crisis will end.
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends (https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends)
Thanks for posting this. I don't regularly read the Remnant so I might have missed it otherwise. Since I remembered how helpful I found your article (years ago) on the validity of SSPX Confessions, I made a point to read your article at the link. I am very glad I did. It was perfect for Easter Week because the Resurrection is the foundation of hope. Sometimes various aspects of this Crisis tempt me to despair for the future of the Church. It eased my heart to see how you envisioned a way forward. I am grateful.
I suppose I ought to join your fan club now. :cheeseheadbeer:
Quote from: Chris Jackson on April 04, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
Curious to see your thoughts on how the current Church crisis will end.
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends
How This Crisis Ends
Any knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that the Catholic Church is currently in a crisis, the effects of which have been staggering. If one adds up the decline in numbers of baptisms, marriages, and vocations, coupled with the silent apostasy of millions of lapsed and "former" Catholics since the end of Vatican II, the figures would be shocking. Many words have been written about the causes of the crisis and volumes published documenting every last detail of the destruction it has caused. However, to my knowledge, little has been written attempting to explain how the crisis might one day successfully be resolved.
As with most Church crises in the past such as the Arian Crisis and the Great Western Schism, it was hard for Catholics living in those times to envision a way out, and indeed many died not knowing what eventual resolution might take place. History has, of course, shown us how these crises were resolved, but the crisis we face now, like all true crises, is unique and has no exact precedent. Thus, the future is uncertain. We may be tempted, as Catholics in the past no doubt were, to think that our crisis may become permanent, to think extreme and theologically dangerous measures are needed to resolve it, or to, God forbid, throw up our hands in frustration believing the Church has somehow failed.
In this article, I will first show why various proposed solutions to the crisis are deficient or unworkable and then I will attempt to propose what a successful resolution might eventually look like.
Read the rest here (https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends).
I read the article independently. I did not notice it was was the subject of this thread (Doh!). I enjoyed it. I basically agree with the conclusion. I suspect Our Lady will have something to do with the outcome; either that or we are in the End Times.
Quote from: clau clau on April 06, 2021, 09:33:11 AM
Quote from: Chris Jackson on April 04, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
Curious to see your thoughts on how the current Church crisis will end.
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends
How This Crisis Ends
Any knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that the Catholic Church is currently in a crisis, the effects of which have been staggering. If one adds up the decline in numbers of baptisms, marriages, and vocations, coupled with the silent apostasy of millions of lapsed and "former" Catholics since the end of Vatican II, the figures would be shocking. Many words have been written about the causes of the crisis and volumes published documenting every last detail of the destruction it has caused. However, to my knowledge, little has been written attempting to explain how the crisis might one day successfully be resolved.
As with most Church crises in the past such as the Arian Crisis and the Great Western Schism, it was hard for Catholics living in those times to envision a way out, and indeed many died not knowing what eventual resolution might take place. History has, of course, shown us how these crises were resolved, but the crisis we face now, like all true crises, is unique and has no exact precedent. Thus, the future is uncertain. We may be tempted, as Catholics in the past no doubt were, to think that our crisis may become permanent, to think extreme and theologically dangerous measures are needed to resolve it, or to, God forbid, throw up our hands in frustration believing the Church has somehow failed.
In this article, I will first show why various proposed solutions to the crisis are deficient or unworkable and then I will attempt to propose what a successful resolution might eventually look like.
Read the rest here (https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends).
I read the article independently. I did not notice it was was the subject of this thread (Doh!). I enjoyed it. I basically agree with the conclusion. I suspect Our Lady will have something to do with the outcome; either that or we are in the End Times.
Yeah Divine Intervention so the Pope and bishops finally consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart. A lot of people are praying for the Pope for this reason. Or maybe if Francis sees Russian tanks crossing the Italian border it may convince him of the need to consecrate Russia. Would you consider scaring the crap out of the Pope Divine Intervention too?
How it ends: WW3 (kills 1/3 of population) and Fire from the Sky (Fiery Comet) (kills further 1/3 of population)
WW3 and Comet has the nice added effect of killing off all or most VII Bishops, Cardinals, and Pope(s). Also exterminates NOites also.
Do this, do that, all a waste of time now. Fire and Brimstone, bring it on.
Putin and Xi seem to be a potent combo to eradicate the hegemony of the Sodom and Gomorrah West. Xi not so much but Putin over the last several years has spoken very forthrightly about the West's depraved culture and how the West's culture would destroy what is left of Russia's culture in the long run.
Since Russia has not been converted to the True Faith due to the failure of the NO Popes it now seems God will use Russia to scourge the West using its buddy China. Hoping this happens in the next few years. Francis would be a perfect ending to this whole mess. Everyone in the future would say: "Yes, yes, God had every right to end it then and there." None of any malarkey like: "You didn't give us enough time."
Quote from: King Wenceslas on April 06, 2021, 12:33:41 PM
How it ends: WW3 (kills 1/3 of population) and Fire from the Sky (Fiery Comet) (kills further 1/3 of population)
WW3 and Comet has the nice added effect of killing off all or most VII Bishops, Cardinals, and Pope(s). Also exterminates NOites also.
Do this, do that, all a waste of time now. Fire and Brimstone, bring it on.
This doesn't sound very . . . Christian.
Quote from: Heinrich on April 06, 2021, 05:15:16 PM
Quote from: King Wenceslas on April 06, 2021, 12:33:41 PM
How it ends: WW3 (kills 1/3 of population) and Fire from the Sky (Fiery Comet) (kills further 1/3 of population)
WW3 and Comet has the nice added effect of killing off all or most VII Bishops, Cardinals, and Pope(s). Also exterminates NOites also.
Do this, do that, all a waste of time now. Fire and Brimstone, bring it on.
This doesn't sound very . . . Christian.
Have you ever read the Apocalypse?
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on April 06, 2021, 05:19:54 PM
Quote from: Heinrich on April 06, 2021, 05:15:16 PM
Quote from: King Wenceslas on April 06, 2021, 12:33:41 PM
How it ends: WW3 (kills 1/3 of population) and Fire from the Sky (Fiery Comet) (kills further 1/3 of population)
WW3 and Comet has the nice added effect of killing off all or most VII Bishops, Cardinals, and Pope(s). Also exterminates NOites also.
Do this, do that, all a waste of time now. Fire and Brimstone, bring it on.
This doesn't sound very . . . Christian.
Have you ever read the Apocalypse?
My "interlocutor" is using irony, again. Right?
Quote from: Vincentus Ioannes on April 05, 2021, 05:41:37 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 04, 2021, 10:43:08 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:26:18 PMRite now we have many rites
:rofl:
What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?
"Serves you rite!"
It is called a typo. Have you never been to the novus ordo? It is different with every priest. The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite. But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.
I regard the Novus Ordo as the worship of a false religion, so I do not attend it.
If there's a wedding or funeral of a loved one, I would apply the relevant moral theology principles. But it's not as if I'm going to turn up at the local Novus parish on a normal Sunday.
And if you are a celibate catholic male, I regard you as a coward. It is not like you are being tossed from a boat and forced to swim to a tribal island to survive amongst natives. Go to a run of the mill novus ordo, learn to survive, and then, consider yourself qualified to advise those in the most difficult living liturgical situation how to navigate theirs. Because, home aloneism is not a viable option long term. Just as the novus ordo is all about "the spirit", survival in its regard is all about "the letter".
What a load of bull.
There's no law that says he must go to the novus ordo missae in order to learn to survive. Catholicism isn't Scientology. He can walk away and join the Eastern rite if he wants. None of them are cowards.
Quote from: Philip G. on April 06, 2021, 10:17:35 PM
Quote from: Vincentus Ioannes on April 05, 2021, 05:41:37 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 04, 2021, 10:43:08 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:26:18 PMRite now we have many rites
:rofl:
What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?
"Serves you rite!"
It is called a typo. Have you never been to the novus ordo? It is different with every priest. The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite. But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.
I regard the Novus Ordo as the worship of a false religion, so I do not attend it.
If there's a wedding or funeral of a loved one, I would apply the relevant moral theology principles. But it's not as if I'm going to turn up at the local Novus parish on a normal Sunday.
And if you are a celibate catholic male, I regard you as a coward. It is not like you are being tossed from a boat and forced to swim to a tribal island to survive amongst natives. Go to a run of the mill novus ordo, learn to survive, and then, consider yourself qualified to advise those in the most difficult living liturgical situation how to navigate theirs. Because, home aloneism is not a viable option long term. Just as the novus ordo is all about "the spirit", survival in its regard is all about "the letter".
I couldn't care less if you regard me as a coward. I grew up in the Novus Ordo, and abandoning it was a conscious decision. I'm certainly not going to be swayed to return to that vomit by an anonymous user on a discussion board calling me names.
If the Novus Ordo were my only option, I would have to be "home alone", just as the recusants were during the English 'Reformation'. But as it stands, I'm not home alone. I have multiple options for Mass.
I have no desire to "survive" in the Novus Ordo, just as I have no desire to "survive" in Anglicanism or Lutheranism. I want the real Catholic religion and Mass, and by the grace of God, I have found them.
Quote from: Vincentus Ioannes on April 07, 2021, 10:01:03 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 06, 2021, 10:17:35 PM
Quote from: Vincentus Ioannes on April 05, 2021, 05:41:37 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 04, 2021, 10:43:08 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:26:18 PMRite now we have many rites
:rofl:
What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?
"Serves you rite!"
It is called a typo. Have you never been to the novus ordo? It is different with every priest. The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite. But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.
I regard the Novus Ordo as the worship of a false religion, so I do not attend it.
If there's a wedding or funeral of a loved one, I would apply the relevant moral theology principles. But it's not as if I'm going to turn up at the local Novus parish on a normal Sunday.
And if you are a celibate catholic male, I regard you as a coward. It is not like you are being tossed from a boat and forced to swim to a tribal island to survive amongst natives. Go to a run of the mill novus ordo, learn to survive, and then, consider yourself qualified to advise those in the most difficult living liturgical situation how to navigate theirs. Because, home aloneism is not a viable option long term. Just as the novus ordo is all about "the spirit", survival in its regard is all about "the letter".
I couldn't care less if you regard me as a coward. I grew up in the Novus Ordo, and abandoning it was a conscious decision. I'm certainly not going to be swayed to return to that vomit by an anonymous user on a discussion board calling me names.
If the Novus Ordo were my only option, I would have to be "home alone", just as the recusants were during the English 'Reformation'. But as it stands, I'm not home alone. I have multiple options for Mass.
I have no desire to "survive" in the Novus Ordo, just as I have no desire to "survive" in Anglicanism or Lutheranism. I want the real Catholic religion and Mass, and by the grace of God, I have found them.
If there is vomit on your floor, are you going to have your dog clean it up? Do you even have a dog?
Quote from: Philip G. on April 07, 2021, 11:09:48 AM
Quote from: Vincentus Ioannes on April 07, 2021, 10:01:03 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 06, 2021, 10:17:35 PM
Quote from: Vincentus Ioannes on April 05, 2021, 05:41:37 AM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: clau clau on April 04, 2021, 10:43:08 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on April 04, 2021, 10:26:18 PMRite now we have many rites
:rofl:
What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?
"Serves you rite!"
It is called a typo. Have you never been to the novus ordo? It is different with every priest. The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite. But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.
I regard the Novus Ordo as the worship of a false religion, so I do not attend it.
If there's a wedding or funeral of a loved one, I would apply the relevant moral theology principles. But it's not as if I'm going to turn up at the local Novus parish on a normal Sunday.
And if you are a celibate catholic male, I regard you as a coward. It is not like you are being tossed from a boat and forced to swim to a tribal island to survive amongst natives. Go to a run of the mill novus ordo, learn to survive, and then, consider yourself qualified to advise those in the most difficult living liturgical situation how to navigate theirs. Because, home aloneism is not a viable option long term. Just as the novus ordo is all about "the spirit", survival in its regard is all about "the letter".
I couldn't care less if you regard me as a coward. I grew up in the Novus Ordo, and abandoning it was a conscious decision. I'm certainly not going to be swayed to return to that vomit by an anonymous user on a discussion board calling me names.
If the Novus Ordo were my only option, I would have to be "home alone", just as the recusants were during the English 'Reformation'. But as it stands, I'm not home alone. I have multiple options for Mass.
I have no desire to "survive" in the Novus Ordo, just as I have no desire to "survive" in Anglicanism or Lutheranism. I want the real Catholic religion and Mass, and by the grace of God, I have found them.
If there is vomit on your floor, are you going to have your dog clean it up? Do you even have a dog?
Bro what the hell you smokin? Seriously though, this makes zero sense.
QuoteWhat a load of bull.
There's no law that says he must go to the novus ordo missae in order to learn to survive. Catholicism isn't Scientology. He can walk away and join the Eastern rite if he wants. None of them are cowards.
Leave the dead to bury the dead. The time of the novus ordo is passing, the time of the Trad is here. They celebrate their funerals, we celebrate baptisms and marriages.
"Even the whelps eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table".
Quote from: Philip G. on April 08, 2021, 12:22:02 AM
"Even the whelps eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table".
Welp, guess that settles this discussion..... ::)
Quote"Even the whelps eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table".
When a cat climbs a tree and eats a lizard, does that mean the moon was full?
Quote from: Chris Jackson on April 04, 2021, 05:04:21 PM
Curious to see your thoughts on how the current Church crisis will end.
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends
How This Crisis Ends
Any knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that the Catholic Church is currently in a crisis, the effects of which have been staggering. If one adds up the decline in numbers of baptisms, marriages, and vocations, coupled with the silent apostasy of millions of lapsed and "former" Catholics since the end of Vatican II, the figures would be shocking. Many words have been written about the causes of the crisis and volumes published documenting every last detail of the destruction it has caused. However, to my knowledge, little has been written attempting to explain how the crisis might one day successfully be resolved.
As with most Church crises in the past such as the Arian Crisis and the Great Western Schism, it was hard for Catholics living in those times to envision a way out, and indeed many died not knowing what eventual resolution might take place. History has, of course, shown us how these crises were resolved, but the crisis we face now, like all true crises, is unique and has no exact precedent. Thus, the future is uncertain. We may be tempted, as Catholics in the past no doubt were, to think that our crisis may become permanent, to think extreme and theologically dangerous measures are needed to resolve it, or to, God forbid, throw up our hands in frustration believing the Church has somehow failed.
In this article, I will first show why various proposed solutions to the crisis are deficient or unworkable and then I will attempt to propose what a successful resolution might eventually look like.
Read the rest here (https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends).
The people make the institutions, the institutions do not make the people, this is why we get the leaders we deserve, because they're a reflection of ourselves.
An orthodox Pope will not arrive to save us. Look at the College of Cardinals.
The Faith will only be restored in Western people, and propagated elsewhere, by the sacrificial action of those of us who are presently keeping the Faith alive.
If you hold the Faith, and your clergy do not, then it is up to you to spread it. One can not pass down something to another he does not already possess.
The entire foundation of Christianity hangs on the Cross. Christ's redemptive sacrifice was a super-verbal word that continues to speak to people 2000 years after the fact. This is the power of sacrificial action.
The early martyrs died for the Faith; I'm certainly convinced that the martyrs of the future will die for their neighbors to bring them the Faith.
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 02:39:09 PM
The people make the institutions, the institutions do not make the people, this is why we get the leaders we deserve, because they're a reflection of ourselves.
An orthodox Pope will not arrive to save us. Look at the College of Cardinals.
There are so many problems and crises in this human society. Notice I do not say "in the world", as the world has been victimised by what "we" (another misnomer) have done to it. I have a disagreement, not with your sympathies, but with your attestation of culpability. It is one of the mistakes our presently-minded everyman makes, to assign some sort of culpability to his peer group, as if the common man, the hoi-polloi, created this society. It did not. It did not launch the heinous crimes and dastardly deeds in the last several centuries, but rather, it allowed itself to be strung along by them, and now stands on the precipice of ruin, because all the time, the conspiracy has become clearer as it reveals itself in the final stages, more by necessity than intent.
It's never been "us" who are responsible. "We" are nothing more than a managed kennel of animals. This is the utmost deception of democracy and the false enlightenment. Do not mistake despair, pathetic subservience, or apathy with control. The control has been in the unseen hands of a very small cabal, which grew in power and ability, to shape our very existences... now, they are so different than us, as to be orbiting lodestars, flickering from their luciferian apogees, revealing which hues of light they wish to shew the ground-dwelling spectators. Literally. They fly over us, unaccounted for and misappropriated -- even as extraterrestrials. They build under us, and meet in secret dens scattered about the Earth's off-limit areas, and under the seas.
To the second point, I would ask you a question... does the Catholic Church, even since Vatican II, control this society and dictate its behaviour in any way? Of course not. Are our leaders, both apparent and, more importantly, concealed behind the curtains of carefully layered refraction, listening to Catholic bishops and popes to form their policies and plans? Not in the least.
In this manner, the Church and its hierarchy are as much a victim as the people. Truth be told, they were the first victim, then the temporal monarchies, then the laborious masses, and their familial, communitarian, and natural bonds. Like natural law, natural bonds are not in any way axiomatic to the cabal. The cabal does not believe in accepting God's providence. All was accomplished with demonic deceit, and with tencious commitment on their part to subjugate us while receiving our legal consents. To know of this is to become truly "woke" - as a matter of fact, it was the meaning of that phrase, before, as with so many others, that meaning was twisted into a alternate which suits their objectives of torturous psychological indoctrination.
Ultimately, the individual; his body, her mind, and their biological essences will be reformed into new beings. The cognoscenti are fully aware of this fact. What they leak to the media and press, it is like feeding your pet one piece of kibble at a time. Humanity as we know it will change more than it has since the Fall in the approaching decades. That which can be brought into public view is but a small, curated smidgen of actuality; and even then, we oft wonder how true it is. I ask ye, in a government by-the-people, for-the-people, is the very ability to know the truth of matters hidden? It is not. Rather it is all hidden because our fallen aristocracy was murdered, and our most honest, bravest men and women were banned from participation... why it that? Because we were replaced. We lost it. And we lost it at the worst possible time, because science has made absolute tyranny beyond mere human affectation possible.
Quote from: Santantonio on April 11, 2021, 04:41:55 PM
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 02:39:09 PM
The people make the institutions, the institutions do not make the people, this is why we get the leaders we deserve, because they're a reflection of ourselves.
An orthodox Pope will not arrive to save us. Look at the College of Cardinals.
There are so many problems and crises in this human society. Notice I do not say "in the world", as the world has been victimised
by what "we" (another misnomer) have done to it. I have a disagreement, not with your sympathies, but with your attestation of
responsibility. It is one of the mistakes our presently-minded everyman makes, to assign some sort of culpability to his peer group,
as if the common man, the hoi-polloi, created this society. It did not. It did not launch the heinous crimes and dastardly deeds in the
last several centuries, but rather, it allowed itself to be strung along by them, and now stands on the precipice of ruin, because all
the time, the conspiracy has become clearer as it reveals itself in the final stages unfolding.
It's never been "us" who are responsible. "We" are nothing more than a managed kennel of animals. This is the utmost deception
of democracy and the false enlightenment. Do not mistake despair, pathetic subservience, or apathy with control. The control has
been in the unseen hands of a very small cabal, which grew in power and ability, to shape our very existences... now, they are
so different than us, as to be orbiting lodestars, flickering from their luciferian apogees, revealing which hues of light they wish to
shew the ground-dwelling spectators. Literally. They fly over us, unaccounted for. They build under us, and meet in secret dens
scattered around the Earth and under the seas.
To the second point, I would ask you a question... does the Catholic Church, even since Vatican II, control this society
and dictate its behaviour in any way? Of course not. Are our leaders, both apparent and, more importantly, concealed behind the
curtains of carefully layered refraction, listening to Catholic bishops and popes to form their policies and plans? Not in the least.
In this manner, the Church and its hierarchy are as much a victim as the people. Truth be told, they were the first victim,
then the temporal monarchies, then the laborious masses, and their familial and communitarian, natural bonds. All was accomplished
with demonic deceit, and with tencious commitment on their part to subjugate us while receiving our legal consents.
To know of this is to become truly "woke" - as a matter of fact, it was the meaning of that phrase, before, as with so many others,
that meaning was twisted into a different one which suits their objectives.
Ultimately, the individual; his body, her mind, and their biological essences will be reformed into new beings. The cognoscenti are
fully aware of this fact. What they leak to the media and press, it is like feeding your pet one piece of kibble at a time.
Humanity as we know it will change more than it has since the Fall in the approaching decades. That which can be brought into
public view is but a small, curated smidgen of actuality.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but we were strung along, and the Revolution has advanced so rapidly, by the power of our own decadence and corruption. Furthermore, there is such thing as collective guilt. It's natural and undeniable. The bombs dropped on Germany and Japan in the 2nd War didn't care if their victims supported either the Fuhrer or the Emperor. Whether you personally had a hand in the corruption or not, whether you bear any kind of responsibility for it or not, it doesn't matter, you will suffer, and your neighbors will be drug off to hell, alongside the responsible, just the same.
We are our brother's keeper and his downfall will be our own. When the pleasure seeking, brainwashed, people of the world are being lined up for the slaughter, or forced to comply with it, we can win them for Christ by taking their place and defending them.
What better time to show the wicked men of the world who the True God really is and why they should fear Him?
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 05:19:16 PM
What better time to show the wicked men of the world who the True God really is and why they should fear Him?
You and I both know that God is not coming to do business until the End.
Moreover, the Son of Perdition is coming first.
Quote from: Santantonio on April 11, 2021, 05:30:26 PM
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 05:19:16 PM
What better time to show the wicked men of the world who the True God really is and why they should fear Him?
You and I both know that God is not coming to do business until the End.
Moreover, the Son of Perdition is coming first.
I know Nothing.
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 05:39:14 PM
....
I know Nothing.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izAqFoLtzKM[/yt]
Are you from Barcelona? ;)
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 05:39:14 PM
Quote from: Santantonio on April 11, 2021, 05:30:26 PM
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 05:19:16 PM
What better time to show the wicked men of the world who the True God really is and why they should fear Him?
You and I both know that God is not coming to do business until the End.
Moreover, the Son of Perdition is coming first.
I know Nothing.
Losing your faith?
Quote from: Santantonio on April 11, 2021, 06:04:34 PM
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 05:39:14 PM
Quote from: Santantonio on April 11, 2021, 05:30:26 PM
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 05:19:16 PM
What better time to show the wicked men of the world who the True God really is and why they should fear Him?
You and I both know that God is not coming to do business until the End.
Moreover, the Son of Perdition is coming first.
I know Nothing.
Losing your faith?
I believe he means we know nothing of the future really. The future is the future and cannot be know by anyone except God. Predictions are just that, predictions. When the future does arrive the predictions turn to dust.
Not even the most detailed description of the future given by the prophets in the bible do not give justice to the true reality of the future when it arrives. The same for the "son of perdition". When he does arrive everyone in the know will say: "So that is what that meant. I would have never thought that!"
The same for Francis. There is probably only 1 in a 100 trad Catholics that believe he could be the false prophet. Why? Because the other 99 in their mind he hasn't triggered their concept of who the false prophet is. Does that make them right? Not necessarily. So "false prophet" Francis could literally be prepping the way for the "son of perdition" without anyone seeing it. I see all over the place many Trads still calling Francis "Pope Francis" after 8 years. I really feel embarrassed for them. If you haven't gotten it after 8 years you never will even when he makes women deacons.
Good Article, Chris. We do need a Good Pope, and I believe that, as Prophecy of Our Lady of Good Success says, we will get one in the end.
But I do agree with Dellery also that we Trads must evangelize more. We must do everything to spread and propagate the Faith without waiting for Bishops and others. That imo is one of the most important charges of our generation. It may be 15-30 years before we get a good holy Pope. It won't come easily. We must support the good Cardinals and Bishops also, especially Tradition-friendly ones, who may become Pope one day.
So this Chris Jackson character posts his article here on the forum but doesn't even participate in his own thread.
Is the Remnant so desperate nowadays that its writers have to spam their content across discussion forums?
Quote from: Santantonio on April 11, 2021, 04:41:55 PM
Quote from: dellery on April 11, 2021, 02:39:09 PM
The people make the institutions, the institutions do not make the people, this is why we get the leaders we deserve, because they're a reflection of ourselves.
An orthodox Pope will not arrive to save us. Look at the College of Cardinals.
There are so many problems and crises in this human society. Notice I do not say "in the world", as the world has been victimised by what "we" (another misnomer) have done to it. I have a disagreement, not with your sympathies, but with your attestation of culpability. It is one of the mistakes our presently-minded everyman makes, to assign some sort of culpability to his peer group, as if the common man, the hoi-polloi, created this society. It did not. It did not launch the heinous crimes and dastardly deeds in the last several centuries, but rather, it allowed itself to be strung along by them, and now stands on the precipice of ruin, because all the time, the conspiracy has become clearer as it reveals itself in the final stages, more by necessity than intent.
It's never been "us" who are responsible. "We" are nothing more than a managed kennel of animals. This is the utmost deception of democracy and the false enlightenment. Do not mistake despair, pathetic subservience, or apathy with control. The control has been in the unseen hands of a very small cabal, which grew in power and ability, to shape our very existences... now, they are so different than us, as to be orbiting lodestars, flickering from their luciferian apogees, revealing which hues of light they wish to shew the ground-dwelling spectators. Literally. They fly over us, unaccounted for and misappropriated -- even as extraterrestrials. They build under us, and meet in secret dens scattered about the Earth's off-limit areas, and under the seas.
To the second point, I would ask you a question... does the Catholic Church, even since Vatican II, control this society and dictate its behaviour in any way? Of course not. Are our leaders, both apparent and, more importantly, concealed behind the curtains of carefully layered refraction, listening to Catholic bishops and popes to form their policies and plans? Not in the least.
In this manner, the Church and its hierarchy are as much a victim as the people. Truth be told, they were the first victim, then the temporal monarchies, then the laborious masses, and their familial, communitarian, and natural bonds. Like natural law, natural bonds are not in any way axiomatic to the cabal. The cabal does not believe in accepting God's providence. All was accomplished with demonic deceit, and with tencious commitment on their part to subjugate us while receiving our legal consents. To know of this is to become truly "woke" - as a matter of fact, it was the meaning of that phrase, before, as with so many others, that meaning was twisted into a alternate which suits their objectives of torturous psychological indoctrination.
Ultimately, the individual; his body, her mind, and their biological essences will be reformed into new beings. The cognoscenti are fully aware of this fact. What they leak to the media and press, it is like feeding your pet one piece of kibble at a time. Humanity as we know it will change more than it has since the Fall in the approaching decades. That which can be brought into public view is but a small, curated smidgen of actuality; and even then, we oft wonder how true it is. I ask ye, in a government by-the-people, for-the-people, is the very ability to know the truth of matters hidden? It is not. Rather it is all hidden because our fallen aristocracy was murdered, and our most honest, bravest men and women were banned from participation... why it that? Because we were replaced. We lost it. And we lost it at the worst possible time, because science has made absolute tyranny beyond mere human affectation possible.
Well-said. Bravo!
QuoteSo this Chris Jackson character posts his article here
That's a good thing. Relevance.
Thankfully, Our Lady has already told us how this crisis is to be solved; with the Brown Scalpular and the Holy Rosary!
Quote from: james03 on April 17, 2021, 02:37:41 PM
QuoteSo this Chris Jackson character posts his article here
That's a good thing. Relevance.
You know what also is a good thing? Complete sentences and the ability to type out a complete thought.
LOL