Catholicism and Thelema

Started by dellery, June 02, 2021, 08:17:37 PM

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dellery

Yeah, I know this title is pretty strange, but somebody recently told me that I'm a Thelemite. This is deeply troubling to me because I've never intentionally embraced anything "occult".

The comment was in response to me telling an individual about my calling in life, and there wasn't enough time for him to elaborate on his comment.

I have always been called to war, and am unable to ignore it. Every morning I pray that Our Lady act as my Commander and that She gives me the courage to follow Her orders. This is what I live for. No woman, no friends, no nothing, other than the fight. Not much sin in my life or on my hands. I constantly work out, practice with my gun, brutally test myself, and have brought myself to a level of lethality most can not comprehend. This has also driven me to absorb all kinds of strange knowledge and ideas in an effort to always understand what the enemies of our Faith are up to.
Laugh all you want, but it is true, and I'm serious. 
This is why I'm supposedly a Thelemite.

I've never read anything from Crowley, and already have a queue of books that I don't want to interrupt to go chasing after why this comment was made to me.

Call me crazy, accuse me of being on acid, I really don't care.
If somebody here could tell me how all the above makes me a Thelemite, or why this comment may have been made to me, it will be immensely appreciated.

Hopefully, Kaese will lock and delete this thread if it gets too weird.

Thanks.
Sincerely, d.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

DigitalLogos

I mean, there's a little bit of pride and vainglory in the way you describe your regimen (recognized out of charity, not to insult you). But I don't see anything that would pertain to "Do What Thou Wilt is the whole of the Law".

I don't think you're a Thelemite just because you have some vain curiosity with the occult. I myself went down that rabbit hole for about a year, and learned a lot of things I wish I hadn't. But that doesn't make someone a practitioner of the occult or a Thelemite. Admittedly, I read Crowley's "Book of the Law" way back in High School and attempted to embody it. But, honestly, most people embody his teaching these days and could be called "pseudo-Thelemites" because they run after their own wills rather than submit to the Will of God.

So, unless your explorations of occult knowledge have branched into actually trying to embody and practice their arts, I don't see how anyone could label you a Thelemite just for that. Just be careful with the things you're reading about and seek out the counsel of your confessor. It can have an effect on you without you immediately realizing it. That's why I had to put away such things myself.

God bless.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Melkor

Quote from: dellery on June 02, 2021, 08:17:37 PM
Yeah, I know this title is pretty strange, but somebody recently told me that I'm a Thelemite. This is deeply troubling to me because I've never intentionally embraced anything "occult".

The comment was in response to me telling an individual about my calling in life, and there wasn't enough time for him to elaborate on his comment.

I have always been called to war, and am unable to ignore it. Every morning I pray that Our Lady act as my Commander and that She gives me the courage to follow Her orders. This is what I live for. No woman, no friends, no nothing, other than the fight. Not much sin in my life or on my hands. I constantly work out, practice with my gun, brutally test myself, and have brought myself to a level of lethality most can not comprehend. This has also driven me to absorb all kinds of strange knowledge and ideas in an effort to always understand what the enemies of our Faith are up to.
Laugh all you want, but it is true, and I'm serious. 
This is why I'm supposedly a Thelemite.

I've never read anything from Crowley, and already have a queue of books that I don't want to interrupt to go chasing after why this comment was made to me.

Call me crazy, accuse me of being on acid, I really don't care.
If somebody here could tell me how all the above makes me a Thelemite, or why this comment may have been made to me, it will be immensely appreciated.

Hopefully, Kaese will lock and delete this thread if it gets too weird.

Thanks.
Sincerely, d.

They were probably jealous. That sounds awesome. Everyone is different, God made you that way and you are trying to save your soul. Don't pay attention, keep on doing your thing. :cheeseheadbeer:
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

Insanis

Quote from: dellery on June 02, 2021, 08:17:37 PM
Call me crazy, accuse me of being on acid, I really don't care.
If somebody here could tell me how all the above makes me a Thelemite, or why this comment may have been made to me, it will be immensely appreciated.

You might be crazy, or devoted to a specific calling, but I see no reason to accuse you or even suspect you of being a Thelema follower.

Sometimes, accusations are spurious. I have no idea what you described would be perceived that way. Maybe they had a gross misunderstanding of you or focused on a single sentence you might have said. I don't know.

But I don't think you have to worry about that accusation.


dellery

Quote from: DigitalLogos on June 02, 2021, 08:24:49 PM
I mean, there's a little bit of pride and vainglory in the way you describe your regimen (recognized out of charity, not to insult you). But I don't see anything that would pertain to "Do What Thou Wilt is the whole of the Law".

I don't think you're a Thelemite just because you have some vain curiosity with the occult. I myself went down that rabbit hole for about a year, and learned a lot of things I wish I hadn't. But that doesn't make someone a practitioner of the occult or a Thelemite. Admittedly, I read Crowley's "Book of the Law" way back in High School and attempted to embody it. But, honestly, most people embody his teaching these days and could be called "pseudo-Thelemites" because they run after their own wills rather than submit to the Will of God.

So, unless your explorations of occult knowledge have branched into actually trying to embody and practice their arts, I don't see how anyone could label you a Thelemite just for that. Just be careful with the things you're reading about and seek out the counsel of your confessor. It can have an effect on you without you immediately realizing it. That's why I had to put away such things myself.

God bless.

Thanks. A lot of effort goes into what I do and it can be a source of vanity. Never have I tried to embody anything from the Occult. Admittedly, I'm embarrassed to go to my priest about this.

How does submitting to God's Will have anything to do with Thelema?
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

dellery

Quote from: Melkor on June 02, 2021, 08:26:29 PM
They were probably jealous. That sounds awesome. Everyone is different, God made you that way and you are trying to save your soul. Don't pay attention, keep on doing your thing. :cheeseheadbeer:

Thanks, but the person who made the comment is definitely not jealous of me and is wired similarly, but not Catholic.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

dellery

Quote from: Insanis on June 02, 2021, 08:29:37 PM
Quote from: dellery on June 02, 2021, 08:17:37 PM
Call me crazy, accuse me of being on acid, I really don't care.
If somebody here could tell me how all the above makes me a Thelemite, or why this comment may have been made to me, it will be immensely appreciated.

You might be crazy, or devoted to a specific calling, but I see no reason to accuse you or even suspect you of being a Thelema follower.

Sometimes, accusations are spurious. I have no idea what you described would be perceived that way. Maybe they had a gross misunderstanding of you or focused on a single sentence you might have said. I don't know.

But I don't think you have to worry about that accusation.

Thank you. But the person who said this to me does make me worry about the accusation.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

Insanis

Quote from: dellery on June 02, 2021, 08:36:57 PM
Thank you. But the person who said this to me does make me worry about the accusation.

It was a very specific accusation and if you aren't actually following it, you probably aren't. You could be perceived as weird though, and maybe the person associated it with that, but you might want to ask them about their reasoning behind the accusation if you can.


dellery

#8
Quote from: Insanis on June 02, 2021, 09:35:34 PM
Quote from: dellery on June 02, 2021, 08:36:57 PM
Thank you. But the person who said this to me does make me worry about the accusation.

It was a very specific accusation and if you aren't actually following it, you probably aren't. You could be perceived as weird though, and maybe the person associated it with that, but you might want to ask them about their reasoning behind the accusation if you can.

Don't know when we'll cross paths again otherwise I would.

It appears this is what was being referred to:

QuoteIn the most basic sense, a Thelemite is any person who either does their will—if going by Crowley's conception, then their true or pure will, as opposed to the "mundane" will of the ego—or attempts to discover and do that will. This being the loosest conception of what makes someone a Thelemite, any individual who discovers and enacts their true will, or attempts to discover and enact it, knowingly or unknowingly, and whether or not they adhere to Crowley's system of Thelema as such, can be called a Thelemite. In the system of the Thelemic mystical order A?A?, for instance, Lao Tzu, Gautama Buddha, and Muhammad, all of whom predate the development of Thelema, are identified as individuals who, through spiritual attainment, became magi or possibly ipsissimi—i.e., in the Qabalistic sense, attained at least the magical grade of magus, having reached the stage of Chokmah on the Tree of Life; if not having become ipsissimi, which is equivalent of obtaining the stage of Kether—implying that they attained their True Wills.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema

This makes DL's statement above, more understandable, but also introduces another layer of confusion. How does one go from following their True Will (i.e. one's "calling") to ritualistic sex and magic(k)?

Went to edit out this thread but I've already been quoted so it seems we'll just go with it unless things get weird.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

Insanis

I don't know you or this person, but it sounds like that this sort of accusation could be hurled at anybody with a strong discipline in their life or a firm commitment to their vocation.

That isn't Thelema...that is just being disciplined and committed.

TheReturnofLive

#10
Quote from: dellery on June 03, 2021, 04:35:12 AM
QuoteIn the most basic sense, a Thelemite is any person who either does their will—if going by Crowley's conception, then their true or pure will, as opposed to the "mundane" will of the ego—or attempts to discover and do that will. This being the loosest conception of what makes someone a Thelemite, any individual who discovers and enacts their true will, or attempts to discover and enact it, knowingly or unknowingly, and whether or not they adhere to Crowley's system of Thelema as such, can be called a Thelemite. In the system of the Thelemic mystical order A?A?, for instance, Lao Tzu, Gautama Buddha, and Muhammad, all of whom predate the development of Thelema, are identified as individuals who, through spiritual attainment, became magi or possibly ipsissimi—i.e., in the Qabalistic sense, attained at least the magical grade of magus, having reached the stage of Chokmah on the Tree of Life; if not having become ipsissimi, which is equivalent of obtaining the stage of Kether—implying that they attained their True Wills.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema

This makes DL's statement above, more understandable, but also introduces another layer of confusion. How does one go from following their True Will (i.e. one's "calling") to ritualistic sex and magic(k)?

Went to edit out this thread but I've already been quoted so it seems we'll just go with it unless things get weird.

I mean, when one embodies a philosophical / religious / spiritual worldview, they often try to incorporate people with differing philosophical / religious / spiritual worldviews within that system.

There are some Hindus who think that Jesus was just an incarnate version of Krishna, and that Jesus was there just to introduce some fundamental tenants of Hindu asceticism to the Apostles. Some Buddhists think Yahweh is a deva (lesser god) or perhaps an interpretation of a Brahma god (non-materialistic deity without gender, often interpreted as creator of the physical, sensual universe).

Even Saint Paul, from the very beginning, as a certain nihilistic poster here often points out, imputes to the Pagan Romans an implicit knowledge of God, but distorted in their hearts, they made images for themselves and serving the "creature rather than the Creator"

Likewise, many Occult systems like to impute their own worldview into other religious systems. For example, Wiccans believe in two cosmic deities / principles that manifest themselves throughout time (Horned god and moon goddess), and they often ty to match those deities / principles with other religions (for example, Jesus and Mary, Zeus and Aphrodite, Yin and Yang, etc.)

I think something similar is happening here. Some Thelmea practitioner believes he experienced some kind of spiritual enlightenment, and he's matching his own "enlightenment" with your own knowledge / experience. Probably believes that the principle of Thelmea underlies devout and disciplined followers of other religions.

Even though Thelmea is quite a "unique" religious / spiritual phenomenon with its intentional incorporation of Pagan, Satanic, Gnostic, and Occultic practices (and yes, intentional), it's still a religious / spiritual phenomenon meant to give meaning to some people.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

DigitalLogos

Quote from: dellery on June 02, 2021, 08:34:30 PM
Quote from: DigitalLogos on June 02, 2021, 08:24:49 PM
I mean, there's a little bit of pride and vainglory in the way you describe your regimen (recognized out of charity, not to insult you). But I don't see anything that would pertain to "Do What Thou Wilt is the whole of the Law".

I don't think you're a Thelemite just because you have some vain curiosity with the occult. I myself went down that rabbit hole for about a year, and learned a lot of things I wish I hadn't. But that doesn't make someone a practitioner of the occult or a Thelemite. Admittedly, I read Crowley's "Book of the Law" way back in High School and attempted to embody it. But, honestly, most people embody his teaching these days and could be called "pseudo-Thelemites" because they run after their own wills rather than submit to the Will of God.

So, unless your explorations of occult knowledge have branched into actually trying to embody and practice their arts, I don't see how anyone could label you a Thelemite just for that. Just be careful with the things you're reading about and seek out the counsel of your confessor. It can have an effect on you without you immediately realizing it. That's why I had to put away such things myself.

God bless.

Thanks. A lot of effort goes into what I do and it can be a source of vanity. Never have I tried to embody anything from the Occult. Admittedly, I'm embarrassed to go to my priest about this.

How does submitting to God's Will have anything to do with Thelema?

What? I didn't say anything about submission to God's Will having anything to do with Thelema. I said that modern men follow their own wills instead of doing God's Will, making them pseudo-Thelemites for doing so because they are pursuing their own "true will".
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4

TheReturnofLive

Quote from: DigitalLogos on June 03, 2021, 10:06:43 AM

What? I didn't say anything about submission to God's Will having anything to do with Thelema. I said that modern men follow their own wills instead of doing God's Will, making them pseudo-Thelemites for doing so because they are pursuing their own "true will".

To be quite frank, I don't know how anyone can't come to the conclusion that we are, spiritually speaking, in the worst of times (since WWII) since Pagan Rome (in some ways worse than Pagan Rome), because I think all religions and philosophies are being bent and broken to not attain their real purposes, but rather to serve the comfort of our hedonic culture.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

DigitalLogos

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on June 03, 2021, 10:09:57 AM
Quote from: DigitalLogos on June 03, 2021, 10:06:43 AM

What? I didn't say anything about submission to God's Will having anything to do with Thelema. I said that modern men follow their own wills instead of doing God's Will, making them pseudo-Thelemites for doing so because they are pursuing their own "true will".

To be quite frank, I don't know how anyone can't come to the conclusion that we are, spiritually speaking, in the worst of times (since WWII) since Pagan Rome (in some ways worse than Pagan Rome), because I think all religions and philosophies are being bent and broken to not attain their real purposes, but rather to serve the comfort of our hedonic culture.

I 100% agree. If I hadn't become a Catholic I probably would have went insane by now or offed myself. The world today is so utterly Godless and satanic.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Jayne

Quote from: dellery on June 02, 2021, 08:34:30 PM
How does submitting to God's Will have anything to do with Thelema?

The only connection that I can see is linguistic.  You align your will with God's will.  The word "thelema" is a transliteration of the Koine Greek word meaning "will".  But it has been assigned a meaning that has nothing to do with what you are doing.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.