How can an American Catholic Take the Oath of Allegiance?

St. Columba · April 25, 2021, 10:30:46 AM

I am thinking of moving to the US (I had a job interview this past week), but, if I ever wanted to become a citizen, I need to take the Oath of Allegiance;

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen...."

Apparently, there are ways to get around the promise to bear arms and fight for the nation, but there seems to be no remedy to get around th first part of the oath, in bold above....

The problem is that I am a Catholic, and I do have a prior allegiance to the Pope (who is a potentate), who is a sovereign of a foreign state, and has my (prior) devotion and obedience (which I think extends beyond merely spiritual/moral matters). The Pope could, I think, in theory, call for a crusade against the allies of the United States, or even against the US itself.

The Oath also ends with, "and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Mental reservations ain't a way out either. It seems that a Catholic must oath the words as they plainly mean.

Does anyone see a way out of this? I love the USA, but I am a Catholic first.

Thanks for any help!

dellery · April 25, 2021, 10:55:59 AM

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Michael Wilson · April 25, 2021, 10:57:16 AM

According to the official I.N.S. Website the oath in its present form has been around since 1929; which means that plenty of Catholics have taken the oath since then, and I would presume with the permission of the Church. Unless you can find something that interprets the Oath in a manner that is contrary to the Catholic faith, I think it is safe to take it.

Michael Wilson · April 25, 2021, 10:59:13 AM

Quote from: dellery on April 25, 2021, 10:55:59 AM
Quote from: St. Columba on April 25, 2021, 10:30:46 AM
Apparently, there are ways to get around the promise to bear arms and fight for the nation, but there seems to be no remedy to get around th first part of the oath, in bold above....

So you want to enjoy our way of life but don't want to fight for it?

Please, do not come here. We do not need any more freeloaders. Besides, Mexicans join the Marine Corp in droves and will fight alongside us, and they're Catholic. So we've already got a better replacement.

Its not about fighting, he know one can "opt out" of that part, its the renouncing of any allegiance to a foreign Potentate i.e. The Pope that he is concerned about.

St. Columba · April 25, 2021, 11:06:44 AM

Quote from: dellery on April 25, 2021, 10:55:59 AM
Quote from: St. Columba on April 25, 2021, 10:30:46 AM
Apparently, there are ways to get around the promise to bear arms and fight for the nation, but there seems to be no remedy to get around th first part of the oath, in bold above....

So you want to enjoy our way of life but don't want to fight for it?

Please, do not come here. We do not need any more freeloaders. Besides, Mexicans join the Marine Corp in droves and will fight alongside us, and they're Catholic. So we've already got a better replacement.

Thanks Dellery, but what I mean is that modifications are possible (please see here: https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-j-chapter-3) for the military service portion, but not, seemingly, for the renounciation of allegiance to a foreign power.

My concern is simply being able to say the Oath without incurring sin by lying under oath.

dellery · April 25, 2021, 11:12:05 AM

My apologies to St Columba. Add another tally to my "see how much you can make an ass out of yourself" count. My confidence in this department soars.

dellery · April 25, 2021, 11:13:17 AM

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dellery · April 25, 2021, 11:24:08 AM

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St. Columba · April 25, 2021, 11:53:00 AM

Quote from: dellery on April 25, 2021, 11:12:05 AM
My apologies to St Columba. Add another tally to my "see how much you can make an ass out of yourself" count. My confidence in this department soars.

No worries dellery! Thanks very much!

Daniel · April 25, 2021, 01:06:37 PM

I'd point out that you also need to renounce your allegiance to Christ and your citizenship in His kingdom. Frankly, I'd be more concerned about committing apostasy than perjury.

Short answer is, if those are the rules then I don't think you can become a US citizen. But if it's worth my opinion--as an American citizen--I'd say that you aren't missing out. I'm not even fully convinced that the USA is a legitimately-established authority. (And I sure hope it isn't, because I don't obey all its oppressive laws.)

dellery · April 25, 2021, 02:13:09 PM

Quote from: Daniel on April 25, 2021, 01:06:37 PM
I'd point out that you also need to renounce your allegiance to Christ and your citizenship in His kingdom. Frankly, I'd be more concerned about committing apostasy than perjury.

Short answer is, if those are the rules then I don't think you can become a US citizen. But if it's worth my opinion--as an American citizen--I'd say that you aren't missing out. I'm not even fully convinced that the USA is a legitimately-established authority. (And I sure hope it isn't, because I don't obey all its oppressive laws.)

Take it back before I send my Gang-stalkers after you for being an avowed law-breaker.

You're being typed at by a covert Mossad agent assigned to a special task force in the FBI to root out DVE's and terrorize them. Ask Heinrich and James, they know.

St. Columba · April 25, 2021, 03:38:50 PM

Quote from: Daniel on April 25, 2021, 01:06:37 PM
I'd point out that you also need to renounce your allegiance to Christ and your citizenship in His kingdom. Frankly, I'd be more concerned about committing apostasy than perjury.

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dellery · April 25, 2021, 03:44:52 PM

Even initiates into the 666th degree of the Illuminati, the degree in which the adept learns the Elbow Destruction technique, are not required to renounce their allegiance to Christ, and are permitted to continue being citizens in His kingdom.

St. Columba · April 25, 2021, 03:58:18 PM

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 25, 2021, 10:57:16 AM
According to the official I.N.S. Website the oath in its present form has been around since 1929; which means that plenty of Catholics have taken the oath since then, and I would presume with the permission of the Church. Unless you can find something that interprets the Oath in a manner that is contrary to the Catholic faith, I think it is safe to take it.

Thank you Michael for your kind response. In all charity and humility though, someone could counter with: (a) the fact that many Catholics do (or don't do) something is not proof that it is ok to do (bandwagon fallacy); (b) that fact that a country's bishops are silent on a matter does not necessary prove it is ok (argument from silence); (c) episcopal hierarchies of countries can and do err (example, the infamous Winnipeg Statement in Canada, or the Bishops in England in St. Thomas More's time)

If there is a postive approbation from the U.S. Bishops (pre or post Vatican II) stating that the Oath is (morally) salutary, then ok, I can use that as some evidence that my thinking is wrong. Otherwise, I am left with the obvious and plain meaning of the words contained in the Oath.

Besides, part of the entire American ethos was to emancipate from the Crown and the Pope. Perhaps this Oath is exactly what those who framed it had in mind: no foreign power shall supercede here.

I am most certiainly not trying to start an argument Michael....I have not posted on SD for a very long time before today....but I am looking for a good solid argument as to how, and why, it is perfectly fine for a Catholic to take the US Oath of Allegiance.

In a spirit of peace Michael,

Peter

Michael Wilson · April 25, 2021, 04:17:38 PM

St. C.
I'm not looking for an argument either, I'm trying to look at this as objectively as possible, and I don't mind if you don't take my post as "Gospel truth". I want to go back to the approbation thingy; it is true that bishops are not infallible even a large number of them without the Pope; but what I am assuming is that the U.S. Bishops informed Rome about this oath and that Rome did not raise any objections to Catholics taking the Oath. Even if we assume that the U.S. Bishops didn't inform Rome, there has been a "Papal Nuncio" in the U.S. For a long time, and I don't see how they (the Nuncios) could not have been informed about the Oath and made Rome aware of it. If Rome raised no objection to Catholics taking the Oath, then we have to assume that it is O.K. for Catholics to take it.