Church Contradiction on Baptism of Desire

[james03]

Now, realistically, how many Akmeds are there?  If we liberally assume EVERY moslem killed for some heresy was in fact a Christian who was miraculously given the Divine Light of faith, it is a small number.

Why?  Because humans by their nature are fallen.  And because their circumstances are not congruent with an acceptance of grace nor fleeing to the sacraments.  Just as an unbaptized child before the age of reason is not saved due to his circumstances.

[Michael Wilson]

Ok,

If what you are saying is true, then God does not send graces to some men.

I stated that God sends sufficient grace to all, only efficacious grace to the elect, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

re. Sufficient vs. Efficacious graces: The Molinists also use these two terms; however the Molinist hold that there is no "intrinsic" difference between the two; a grace that is accepted, is "efficacious" one that is rejected is only "sufficient". For the Thomists, there is an essential difference between the two.

Correct, and I'm a Molinist.  There is no difference between graces, acceptance depends on the situation of the person.

But if you are a Molinist (as I am myself);and  we agree sufficient grace and efficacious grace are the same, then what differentiates them is the acceptance or rejection of this grace or graces by the person that receives them.  Therefore, I don't know why you so strongly oppose the idea that all men receive sufficient grace to save their souls.

[Michael Wilson]

Re. In your two examples; I have no problem with either one; I also accept that both are possible. But while I don't exclude that God can make a miraculous intervention to anyone at any time; I also believe that He can also lead those who are far from the truth, by His graces to the Catholic faith without a miraculous intervention.

[Michael Wilson]

Now, realistically, how many Akmeds are there?  If we liberally assume EVERY moslem killed for some heresy was in fact a Christian who was miraculously given the Divine Light of faith, it is a small number.

Why?  Because humans by their nature are fallen.  And because their circumstances are not congruent with an acceptance of grace nor fleeing to the sacraments.  Just as an unbaptized child before the age of reason is not saved due to his circumstances.

But as a Congruist, you would hold that God can so tailor the grace that He sends a soul to the circumstances that the soul finds itself, that if it so wills and cooperates, it will arrive at eternal salvation; no?

[james03]

we agree sufficient grace and efficacious grace are the same.....Therefore, I don't know why you so strongly oppose the idea that all men receive sufficient grace to save their souls.

LOL.  Go back and read what you wrote.  I don't accept the distinction (for the most part, I concede the Thomists might be right).

To restate, I don't believe most men receive enough Graces congruent with salvation.  In our example, why did God drop Barrack, but follow up with more graces for Akmed?  For His secret Purpose which He has not revealed.

[james03]

I also believe that He can also lead those who are far from the truth, by His graces to the Catholic faith without a miraculous intervention.

That is a denial of the Athanasian Creed, Council of Florence, and the Council of Trent: a denial of the need for the sacraments, or at least a desire for the sacraments.  Further, Christ told us it is a narrow path to salvation, and few are saved.  The narrow path is the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith.  Indeed few are saved and billions upon billions are lost, and the known cases of miraculous intervention are few if not non-existent.  I think the SouthWest Indians had an ardent desire for baptism, so if any died in that state, he'd have been saved.

edit:  If you mean by "lead to the Catholic Faith" sending a missionary to preach to them, or letting them see it on the internet, then I agree, no miracle is needed to come to the Catholic Faith.  But once they have the Faith, if they are moslem, they must denounce allah and by martyred, otherwise the Roman martyrs were fools.

[james03]

But as a Congruist, you would hold that God can so tailor the grace that He sends a soul to the circumstances that the soul finds itself, that if it so wills and cooperates, it will arrive at eternal salvation; no?

Backwards, for the most part.  God tailors the circumstances to match His decree of predestination (hence, the Molinist aspect).  For the elect, He will tailor the graces such that they are congruent to the state in life, yes.

So the bulk of the elect are born Catholic, or at least die formally Catholic.  The remainder of the elect are saved by miraculous intervention.

[Michael Wilson]

we agree sufficient grace and efficacious grace are the same.....Therefore, I don't know why you so strongly oppose the idea that all men receive sufficient grace to save their souls.

LOL.  Go back and read what you wrote.  I don't accept the distinction (for the most part, I concede the Thomists might be right).

To restate, I don't believe most men receive enough Graces congruent with salvation.  In our example, why did God drop Barrack, but follow up with more graces for Akmed?  For His secret Purpose which He has not revealed.

James,
but you said previously that you were a Molinist and therefore you believe that there is no intrinsic difference between sufficient and efficacious graces. If such were the case, then Barack would have received sufficient graces to save his soul, but did not co-operate.
Here is the quote:

    re. Sufficient vs. Efficacious graces: The Molinists also use these two terms; however the Molinist hold that there is no "intrinsic" difference between the two; a grace that is accepted, is "efficacious" one that is rejected is only "sufficient". For the Thomists, there is an essential difference between the two.

Correct, and I'm a Molinist.  There is no difference between graces, acceptance depends on the situation of the person.

So if you accept there is no intrinsic difference then you accept that God sends all men sufficient graces to save their souls.
You are confusing me.

[Michael Wilson]

I also believe that He can also lead those who are far from the truth, by His graces to the Catholic faith without a miraculous intervention.

That is a denial of the Athanasian Creed, Council of Florence, and the Council of Trent: a denial of the need for the sacraments, or at least a desire for the sacraments.  Further, Christ told us it is a narrow path to salvation, and few are saved.  The narrow path is the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith.  Indeed few are saved and billions upon billions are lost, and the known cases of miraculous intervention are few if not non-existent.  I think the SouthWest Indians had an ardent desire for baptism, so if any died in that state, he'd have been saved.

edit:  If you mean by "lead to the Catholic Faith" sending a missionary to preach to them, or letting them see it on the internet, then I agree, no miracle is needed to come to the Catholic Faith.  But once they have the Faith, if they are moslem, they must denounce allah and by martyred, otherwise the Roman martyrs were fools.

James,
why do you keep repeating an argument that has nothing to do with this topic i.e. The 'Athanasian Creed etc'? The question is: What of those who never have heard of the Catholic Church? There are two opinions given by Catholic theologians neither of which includes knowing the Athanasian Creed or the Creed of the Council of Trent by heart.  I have already posted a quote from Msgr. Fenton which holds to the "more common" opinion i.e "the Four truths". What is the problem? 
re. "Few are saved"; ok, but Catholic theologians still hold that those who die while not actual members of the Church are not infallibly lost; that is what we are discussing here.  For a while you were holding to this and all of a sudden you revert back to another topic.

[Michael Wilson]

James:

edit:  If you mean by "lead to the Catholic Faith" sending a missionary to preach to them, or letting them see it on the internet, then I agree, no miracle is needed to come to the Catholic Faith.  But once they have the Faith, if they are moslem, they must denounce allah and by martyred, otherwise the Roman martyrs were fools.

Ok, but what if they arrive at the conclusion privately that Mohamedanism is a bunch of malarkey; but they are stuck in the middle of Saudi Arabia and are old and feeble; or a married woman and cannot travel; and there are no Catholic missionaries around? They interiorly reject the false religion they are in; they make an act of supernatural faith in the one true God and they are ready to obey and believe in whatever is the true religion; but they cannot do anything about it? The same goes for the Indians in pre-Columbian America. One could say that an Angel was sent to them to teach them at leas the truths of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation/redemption; do you believe that such is possible?

[Michael Wilson]

But as a Congruist, you would hold that God can so tailor the grace that He sends a soul to the circumstances that the soul finds itself, that if it so wills and cooperates, it will arrive at eternal salvation; no?

Backwards, for the most part.  God tailors the circumstances to match His decree of predestination (hence, the Molinist aspect).  For the elect, He will tailor the graces such that they are congruent to the state in life, yes.

So the bulk of the elect are born Catholic, or at least die formally Catholic.  The remainder of the elect are saved by miraculous intervention.

re. "Backwards"; right, here is "The Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology" pg. 59:

Congruism...Suarez develops and integrates this teaching (in the Molinist system, no essential difference between sufficient and efficacius grace) of the Master, saying that the efficacy of grace depends on its adaptation to the psychological conditions of the individual, to the circumstances of time and place: this adaptation render the grace congruous, proportioned to the subject in such a way that the effect follows infallibly without violating the freedom of choice of the subject himself....All the Congruists agree with Molina in maintaining that grace, in order to be efficacious, is conditioned by the free consent of man....

From my reading of this passage, it appears that the author is saying that the grace is adapted to the circumstances, and not vice-versa.

[james03]

If such were the case, then Barack would have received sufficient graces to save his soul, but did not co-operate.

He did receive sufficient grace and cooperated.  He quit his sodomy.  However later he went back to his ways , defying his conscience.  The grace was not efficacious unto salvation.  For akmed, God sends further graces of fortitude and prudence, and akmed dies professing the Faith.  He receives efficacious grace because he is elect.

So if you accept there is no intrinsic difference then you accept that God sends all men sufficient graces to save their souls.

You are trying to mix systems, and that doesn't work.  If you insist on using the term sufficient Grace, then what I believe is that God does not send efficacious Grace to everyone to save their souls.

What of those who never have heard of the Catholic Church? There are two opinions given by Catholic theologians neither of which includes knowing the Athanasian Creed or the Creed of the Council of Trent by heart.  I have already posted a quote from Msgr. Fenton which holds to the "more common" opinion i.e "the Four truths". What is the problem?

If God sends them efficacious Grace, they will respond and He will send a preacher or give them Faith by a miracle.  All the others are lost.

but they cannot do anything about it?

They have to quit their false religion and denounce it, otherwise they go to hell.  Or the Roman martyrs were fools.  They should have just put the pinch of incense in the pot.  There was nothing they could do about it right?  Oh yeah, they could refuse to deny Christ.

One could say that an Angel was sent to them to teach them at leas the truths of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation/redemption; do you believe that such is possible?

Proven.  You gave the example of the nun.  But this is extremely rare. 

From my reading of this passage, it appears that the author is saying that the grace is adapted to the circumstances, and not vice-versa.

Fair enough.  So an efficacious grace is one that is congruous with the circumstances of time and place.

[Non Nobis]

It is ALSO true that he is reprobate because HE freely rejects God's graces, NOT because God put him in a situation that is not congruent with salvation.

Children without access to baptism who die before the age of reason are reprobates by definition.  God put them in a situation where they would not be baptized.

Ok, so what I said was not true about unreasoning children.  So forget the general statement.

But that does not allow you to ignore the specific situation - what is true for reasoning adults:

Does God tell a reprobate who has gone to the eternal torments:

"Blame it on your reprobation, carried out by your circumstances and the fact that I did not will to work a miracle"

Or does He RATHER say:

"Blame it on your freely-willed sins, your free rejection of My grace."
(God might explain reprobation, but not by saying that it is to BLAME for sin)

The punishment of eternal torments is DUE to sin, not circumstances.

[Clare]

It is ALSO true that he is reprobate because HE freely rejects God's graces, NOT because God put him in a situation that is not congruent with salvation.

Children without access to baptism who die before the age of reason are reprobates by definition.  God put them in a situation where they would not be baptized.

I've never understood how that fact squares with the other fact that God gives sufficient grace to everyone to be saved. But strangely, sufficient isn't enough. (I know, I've asked about this before.)

[Non Nobis]

It is ALSO true that he is reprobate because HE freely rejects God's graces, NOT because God put him in a situation that is not congruent with salvation.

Children without access to baptism who die before the age of reason are reprobates by definition.  God put them in a situation where they would not be baptized.

I've never understood how that fact squares with the other fact that God gives sufficient grace to everyone to be saved. But strangely, sufficient isn't enough. (I know, I've asked about this before.)

(Please note, I responded to the inner quote from James in an earlier post)

Clare, since James was talking specifically about children before the age of reason, did you have a problem with that in particular?

Sufficient grace (and efficacious grace, if you believe in that) works in someone who can know and love God and obey Him.  These things (freely cooperating with God's grace) require reason and free will.  A baby  does not have these, so these particular graces aren't for him. Sanctifying Grace is the essential spiritual "habit", that does not require reason: babies can receive this but only by the Sacrament of Baptism. God is not unjust for giving unbaptized babies only natural happiness;  Christ never promised that every baby would be baptized.  God would be just even to give EVERY cooperating man only natural happiness EXCEPT FOR ONE THING: Christ paid an infinite price to win heaven for every cooperating man.  Because this price has been paid, God has PROMISED salvation to all who cooperate. Christ is our Redeemer out of mercy and love, not out of justice, since God did not OWE us a Redeemer.  But once Christ did Redeem us His justice means that He will keep the promise of the Redemption.

I think this is right this far, even though James may say that no one can cooperate unless he is receives the Sacrament of Baptism.

(By cooperating with grace I imply obeying God, being forgiven after sin, and receiving the gift of final perseverance)

But, Clare, are you really talking about sufficient and efficacious grace in adults; how can grace be sufficient if efficacious grace is also needed?

I think this a digression from this thread, but let me think aloud about it anyway..

Since people (in this forum and others) continue to have problems with this (and because I don't understand it myself too well), my attempt at an answer will probably not satisfy you. But let me try (I don't know if this is theologically correct, but this is how I look at it).

Sufficient grace is sufficient for doing a good deed because if you do not resist it will get you to the door of a good deed, and then Christ WILL lift you up over the threshold.  You could call what Christ gives you "God's help" (although I mean efficacious grace).  Sufficient grace is sufficient to get as  far as is possible, but God's help (which He will give you) is needed to do what is impossible for man - a supernatural good deed. You could say that sufficient grace is sufficient except that God's help is also needed.  A statement can be true "except that".   A full tank of gas is sufficient for a trip, except that you also need a driver (the gas is sufficient grace, and Christ is the driver).

However, what I said is not complete, because God's help is not just God cheering you on or offering you a drink as you use the golden bundle of grace that He gave you to use by yourself.  You need help cooperating with the grace. In fact you can not cooperate with it without God working in you. There is mystery there, but I don't see how can it can be otherwise. God does not make you a little god that can with a little god bundle do things impossible to you; God has to be there in the doing. In a supernatural act  "God is more intimate to you than you are to yourself".

..with fear and trembling work out your salvation. [13] For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will

I know there is more confusion when discussing whether you can even "not resist" without God's help. But that is a further discussion; I don't see that it makes what I have just said untrue. Even with INPEFESS' help I also find this further discussion difficult.  But I fall back on the truth that God is the cause of all good.