Accepting Apology

Started by Heinrich, January 20, 2023, 08:15:07 PM

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Greg

#30
If they genuinely did not know what they were doing then they would not be culpable for their sin.

Just as a mentally handicapped person would not be guilty of pulling a trigger on a gun.

Pretty sure that Pontius Pilate, the Jewish priests and the Romans who nailed Jesus to the cross knew that they were doing a barbaric act on an innocent man.

Pretty sure that all those miracles Jesus worked should have convinced the Jewish high-priests that Jesus was no ordinary man.

Judas certainly knew what he was doing.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Julio

^^It is hard to judge regarding the Roman soldiers because we know what happened to St. Longinus who proclaimed Jesus as God after piercing the side of His body. The love of God is expressed in different ways to each of the person. The Parable of Workers in Vineyard is instructive of this hope towards the grace of God. While it is true that we see those who nailed Him as cruel people but we do not know how Jesus expressed that love and/or justice thereafter much as the same was not stated in the Holy Bible.

crossingtherubicon

Demons attach to unforgiveness. 
But at the same time, we were never told we had to trust anyone, besides God.

Michael Wilson

Our Lord in Matt. 18:
Quote
 [21] Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [22] Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

Haydock Commentary:
QuoteVer. 21. S. Peter knew the Jews to be much given to revenge; he therefore thought it a great proof of superior virtue to be able to forgive seven times. It was for this reason he proposed this question to our Lord; who, to shew how much he esteemed charity, immediately answered, not only seven times, but seventy times seven times. He does not mean to say that this number must be the bounds of our forgiving; we must forgive to the end, and never take revenge, however often our brother offend against us. There must be no end of forgiving poor culprits that sincerely repent, either in the sacrament of penance, or one man another his offences. B. — To recommend this great virtue more forcibly, he subjoins the parable of the king taking his accounts: and, from the great severity there exercised, he intimates how rigid will his heavenly Father be to those who forgive not their enemies. Dion. Carth.
How many times we must forgive those who offend us if they repent:
QuoteVer. 22. Till seventy times seven; i.e. 490 times; but it is put by way of an unlimited number, to signify we must pardon private injuries, though even so often done to us. Wi. — When our brother sins against us, we must grieve for his sake over the evil he has committed; but for ourselves we ought greatly to rejoice, because we are thereby made like our heavenly Father, who bids the sun to shine upon the good and the bad. But if the thought of having to imitate God alarm us, though it should not seem difficult to a true lover of God, let us place before our eyes the examples of his favourite servants. Let us imitate Joseph, who though reduced to a state of the most abject servitude, by the hatred of his unnatural brethren, yet in the affliction of his heart, employed all his power to succour them in their afflictions. Let us imitate Moses, who after a thousand injuries, raised his fervent supplications in behalf of his people. Let us imitate the blessed Paul, who, though daily suffering a thousand afflictions from the Jews, still wished to become an anathema for their salvation. Let us imitate Stephen, who, when the stones of his persecutors were covering him with wounds, prayed that the Almighty would pardon their sin. Let us follow these admirable examples, then shall we extinguish the flames of anger, then will our heavenly Father grant us the forgiveness of our sins, through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ. S. Chrys. hom. lxii.
Which Our Lord then followed with the parable of the "wicked servant, whom the king (Our Lord) forgave the debt of ten thousand talents of silver i.e. Our sins. The wicked servant in turn refused to forgive a fellow servant for the trifling amount that this fellow owed him.
On the wicked servant:
QuoteVer. 35. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you. In this parable the master is said to have remitted the debt, and yet afterwards to have punished the servant for it. God doth not in this manner with us. But we may here observe, once for all, that in parables, diverse things are only ornamental to the parable itself; and a caution and restriction is to be used in applying them. Wi. — Not that God will revoke a pardon once granted; for this would be contrary to his infinite mercy, and his works are without repentance. It means that God will not pardon, or rather that he will severely punish the ingratitude and inhumanity of the man, who, after having received from God the most liberal pardon of his grievous transgressions, refuses to forgive the slightest offence committed against him by his neighbour, who is a member, nay a son of his God. This ingratitude may justly be compared with the 10,000 talents, as every grievous offence committed against God, exceeds, in an infinite degree, any offence against man. T. — This forgiveness must be real, not pretended; from the heart, and not in word and appearance only; sacrificing all desire of revenge, all anger, hatred and resentment, at the shrine of charity.
Its not easy to follow Our Lord, and not our too human and natural inclinations; but with prayer and God's grace, we can "do violence" to ourselves, and forgive those who offend us.


"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Father Gabriel Amorth, a famous exorcist, stated that one of the ways that a person makes themselves open to diabolic possession, is to refuse to forgive those who have offended them.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Lynne

Quote from: Michael Wilson on February 03, 2023, 04:01:20 PMFather Gabriel Amorth, a famous exorcist, stated that one of the ways that a person makes themselves open to diabolic possession, is to refuse to forgive those who have offended them.

Wow.
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael's Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    "My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you're supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen"

Julio

Quote from: Michael Wilson on February 03, 2023, 04:01:20 PMFather Gabriel Amorth, a famous exorcist, stated that one of the ways that a person makes themselves open to diabolic possession, is to refuse to forgive those who have offended them.
Indeed, because according also to the seminars that were conducted by Fr. Chad Ripperger who is also an exorcists, our mental condition which involves our emotions and perceptions can be exploited by the demon. That being the case, the inability to forgive carries with it the negative emotion towards the person who caused that offense and that matter creates that window to manifest the diabolic in the mind of the person even to anyone who is frequent in going to the Church.

Although, piousness is not at all an exemption from demonic possession because God my test a faithful and could will that. Us is His own anyway.

awkward customer

QuoteBut if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

According to Matt 18:15-17, if someone offends you and will not "hear" you, or your witnesses, or the Church, then you are to treat the offender as "the heathen and publican".

But what about forgiveness?  It doesn't apply if someone will not "hear" you.

When suggesting that those who don't forgive are opening themselves to the demonic, it really helps to specify that those who refuse to show remorse, apologise, make restitution for grave offenses are not candidates for forgiveness.

When people take the trouble to make this distinction, as Michael Wilson did in one post above, it really helps avoid re-traumatising people who have suffered abuse of any kind from someone who has no remorse at all.

Please try to avoid putting an additional and entirely unnecessary burden on people who already have enough to deal with.  Being told that they must forgive an abuser who has zero remorse or they will open themselves to the demonic, could easily tip a vulnerable person over the edge. 


Julio

To my understanding of forgiveness it need not be communicated to the sinner. So even if the one who offended you won't hear you, the act of forgiving can be done ergo, freeing thyself from the wounds of it. One who is treated a heathen or a publican does not mean they cannot be forgiven. Carrying that wound caused by the trauma is not good for the soul to my humble understanding. The trauma itself should be removed from ones will and to be free from it is to forgive.

Greg

Quote from: Michael Wilson on February 03, 2023, 04:01:20 PMFather Gabriel Amorth, a famous exorcist, stated that one of the ways that a person makes themselves open to diabolic possession, is to refuse to forgive those who have offended them.

He also stated a load of utter bollocks.  Never took that clown seriously myself.

Did he say the new mass?
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Jmartyr

Quote from: Greg on February 04, 2023, 07:57:13 AM
Quote from: Michael Wilson on February 03, 2023, 04:01:20 PMFather Gabriel Amorth, a famous exorcist, stated that one of the ways that a person makes themselves open to diabolic possession, is to refuse to forgive those who have offended them.

He also stated a load of utter bollocks.  Never took that clown seriously myself.

Did he say the new mass?
I saw a documentary about him one time. He openly mocked a demon that was inside a woman. Seems a little Benny Hinn like to me.
"If anyone is excommunicated it is not I, but the excommunicators." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
" A false church cannot have a true mission." - St. Francis De Sales
" The way is open for us to deprive councils of their authority, contradict their acts freely, and profess confidently, whatever SEEMS to be true. " - Martin Luther

Michael Wilson

What of the case of someone who wont ask forgiveness or be reconciled with us? Is it necessary to continue to attempt to reconcile, or treat with this person? What if they are rude to us, each time we meet them? We are not obliged to continue to deal with these people. But it is highly advisable not to carry a grudge and to pray for their conversion so that if they do not repent their refusal will demonstrate their bad faith and call down chastisement from God's justice upon themselves.
Romans 12.
Quote[18] If it be possible, as much as is in you, have peace with all men. [19] Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] But if thy enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink. For, doing this, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

awkward customer

#42
Quote from: Michael Wilson on February 04, 2023, 09:26:52 AMWhat of the case of someone who wont ask forgiveness or be reconciled with us? Is it necessary to continue to attempt to reconcile, or treat with this person? What if they are rude to us, each time we meet them? We are not obliged to continue to deal with these people. But it is highly advisable not to carry a grudge and to pray for their conversion so that if they do not repent their refusal will demonstrate their bad faith and call down chastisement from God's justice upon themselves.
Romans 12.
Quote[18] If it be possible, as much as is in you, have peace with all men. [19] Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] But if thy enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink. For, doing this, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head.


Exactly.  Pray for the person, dispel your anger and desire for revenge and let go

And if they're hungry, of course give them food. You can't let them starve. After all, you would give food to a hungry tax collector or publican, and that is how we are to treat the kind of unrepentant offender you describe in your post.

But this is not forgiveness.  It is shaking the dust off your feet and walking away from someone  who has caused you harm and 'won't hear you'.  Forgiveness requires remorse from the offender and the desire to make restitution for any harm done. 

I think there's confusion on this issue.  Forgiveness has become a demand accompanied by threats, and it's the victims not the perpetrators who are having this inversion directed at them.  I'm sure that the more traditional view is that forgiveness depends on the willingness of the offender to repent and can't be expected of the victim without it..

TradGranny

As a victim of severe childhood multi-perpetrator assaults, let me say that it has been a long difficult process to forgive them. It has only been by the grace of God that I have been able to do so. Having said that, for the safety of familiy members, none of us have anything to do with any of the perpetrators, nor anyone who associates with them. To do so would be dangerous. Forgiveness is not something we do for the well-being of the other person; it is something we do to please God, to break the bond that would continue to tie us to the perps, and for our own well-being. Is my process complete? haha No. I am still a work in process. But every time the enemy attacks, I flee to Our Lord and Our Lady and my Guardian Angel for protection. And offer my suffering to God, which glorifies God and puts the enemy to shame.
To have courage for whatever comes in life - everything lies in that.
Saint Teresa of Avila

Jmartyr

Quote from: TradGranny on February 04, 2023, 04:05:39 PMAs a victim of severe childhood multi-perpetrator assaults, let me say that it has been a long difficult process to forgive them. It has only been by the grace of God that I have been able to do so. Having said that, for the safety of familiy members, none of us have anything to do with any of the perpetrators, nor anyone who associates with them. To do so would be dangerous. Forgiveness is not something we do for the well-being of the other person; it is something we do to please God, to break the bond that would continue to tie us to the perps, and for our own well-being. Is my process complete? haha No. I am still a work in process. But every time the enemy attacks, I flee to Our Lord and Our Lady and my Guardian Angel for protection. And offer my suffering to God, which glorifies God and puts the enemy to shame.
Awesome post and much food for thought.
"If anyone is excommunicated it is not I, but the excommunicators." - Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
" A false church cannot have a true mission." - St. Francis De Sales
" The way is open for us to deprive councils of their authority, contradict their acts freely, and profess confidently, whatever SEEMS to be true. " - Martin Luther