Is online shopping on Sunday grave matter?

Started by Hannelore, May 20, 2024, 07:27:32 AM

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LausTibiChriste

Quote from: Bonaventure on May 20, 2024, 12:31:24 PM
QuoteIf what I have heard in the past is correct, we are admonished not to do servile work on Sundays - ie. something a servant would do (cut the grass, clean the attic, etc.). But even by this metric - are we not supposed to cook on Sundays?

The key is all unnecessary servile work.

Cooking and light cleaning are almost always ok. Spending 6 hours to do a heavy detail of one's truck, or tiling the floor, is not, unless it is necessary.

Why would a Catholic own a truck? Don't they know it's bad for the environment and Francis would be upset?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

Bonaventure

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on May 20, 2024, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: Bonaventure on May 20, 2024, 12:31:24 PM
QuoteIf what I have heard in the past is correct, we are admonished not to do servile work on Sundays - ie. something a servant would do (cut the grass, clean the attic, etc.). But even by this metric - are we not supposed to cook on Sundays?

The key is all unnecessary servile work.

Cooking and light cleaning are almost always ok. Spending 6 hours to do a heavy detail of one's truck, or tiling the floor, is not, unless it is necessary.

Why would a Catholic own a truck? Don't they know it's bad for the environment and Francis would be upset?


I had to control myself and remove what I wanted to say regarding Bergoglio, as it would be conduct unbecoming.

Bonaventure

Quote from: drummerboy on May 20, 2024, 01:00:32 PMEven if it's not processed till Monday, online shopping on Sunday takes away time from other things we should be doing on Sunday.  Limiting screen time in general on Sunday is wise.

Correct. I 100% agree.

However, the above references avoiding flaws and imperfections.

The OP has severe scruples and it looks like is unable to distinguish between flaws, imperfections, and failing to do what is best or better, for sin.

She posted on another thread that she hopes she isn't going to hell for online shopping on a Sunday.

That doesn't appear to be made in jest.

I was blessed to have recourse to a good doctor and a pre V2 trained priest who also suffered from scruples AND has an STD from a pontifical university, pre V2.

At this point, the best is to inform the OP that online shopping on a Sunday, save for rare circumstances, is not grave matter.

Certainly not in her case.

Melkor

Shopping Sunday is a tricky one, I mean who hasn't gassed up on the way to Sunday Mass before (looking at you, 2uzfe). Or gone out to eat after Mass. Or company coming over and Mum/wife has forgotten something for the dinner so she sends you to the grocer after Mass. Letter of the Law vs spirit of the Law. Remember, Jesus Himself seemingly "broke the Sabbath" by healing people. Something about an ass falling into a pit?

That being said, I certainly wouldn't order stuff online during Sunday. Or shop unless needed. 
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

"Am I not here, I who am your mother?" Mary to Juan Diego

"Let a man walk ten miles steadily on a hot summer's day along a dusty English road, and he will soon discover why beer was invented." G.K. Chesterton

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill." Jesus Christ

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

Old moral manuals are helpful for questions like this.

A wide variety of goods and services are explicitly allowed to be transacted on Sunday, sometimes out of necessity and sometimes out of custom.

I understand this to mean that a small amount of shopping is not grave matter, and if it was necessary, then it isn't even a sin.
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LausTibiChriste

Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on May 21, 2024, 08:09:15 AMOld moral manuals are helpful for questions like this.

A wide variety of goods and services are explicitly allowed to be transacted on Sunday, sometimes out of necessity and sometimes out of custom.

I understand this to mean that a small amount of shopping is not grave matter, and if it was necessary, then it isn't even a sin.

Do you remember what kind of services? Obviously people like first responders, those who work in 24/7 professions (ie. aviation) are off the hook.

It may have been here, or somewhere else, but someone quipped that they asked their Dad why they went out to eat on a Sunday and he responded, "That's what God invented pagans for!"

Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on May 21, 2024, 08:59:20 AM
Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on May 21, 2024, 08:09:15 AMOld moral manuals are helpful for questions like this.

A wide variety of goods and services are explicitly allowed to be transacted on Sunday, sometimes out of necessity and sometimes out of custom.

I understand this to mean that a small amount of shopping is not grave matter, and if it was necessary, then it isn't even a sin.

Do you remember what kind of services? Obviously people like first responders, those who work in 24/7 professions (ie. aviation) are off the hook.

It may have been here, or somewhere else, but someone quipped that they asked their Dad why they went out to eat on a Sunday and he responded, "That's what God invented pagans for!"

QuoteNecessity also permits farmers to "harvest their grain, hay, etc. or gather fruit on Sunday if a storm threatens." Similarly, "any necessary work is allowed in case of fire, flood, etc." And some professions like mechanics may "sharpen, repair, etc. tools that farmers and artisans need on Monday," whereas tailors "may work on Sunday if they cannot otherwise finish mourning clothes for a funeral."

https://fatima.org/news-views/catholic-aplogetics-157/

The historical reasoning regarding Sunday rest is really pretty fascinating.  The servile/common/liberal distinction matters very much -- liberal works may be performed even for pay on Sundays!
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Severinus

I find that to be a strange intepretation.  On the one hand, it seems classist (if you're a housecleaner you aren't allowed to do business, but all-clear if you're a "delicate sculptor"), and on the other, when we reagrd the admonition as a protection for people to keep the sabbath holy, it leaves "liberal" workers with no moral right to refuse Sunday work.

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

Quote from: Severinus on May 21, 2024, 02:01:26 PMI find that to be a strange intepretation.  On the one hand, it seems classist (if you're a housecleaner you aren't allowed to do business, but all-clear if you're a "delicate sculptor"), and on the other, when we reagrd the admonition as a protection for people to keep the sabbath holy, it leaves "liberal" workers with no moral right to refuse Sunday work.

Well of course it's not going to make sense if approached through the lens of class struggle.
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Bonaventure

Quote from: Severinus on May 21, 2024, 02:01:26 PMI find that to be a strange intepretation.  On the one hand, it seems classist (if you're a housecleaner you aren't allowed to do business, but all-clear if you're a "delicate sculptor"), and on the other, when we reagrd the admonition as a protection for people to keep the sabbath holy, it leaves "liberal" workers with no moral right to refuse Sunday work.

The manuals aren't meant to be absolute, but a guide.

It's why confessors exist. One also has to keep in mind that times have changed, as have how society and people consider "servile."

Is it "servile" to throw dirty clothes into a machine, along with a tide pod, and press a button?

Filing up a tub of water and scrubbing along a washing board?

The manuals are very clear that custom, culture, etc play as role.

Severinus

Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on May 21, 2024, 02:12:29 PM
Quote from: Severinus on May 21, 2024, 02:01:26 PMI find that to be a strange intepretation.  On the one hand, it seems classist (if you're a housecleaner you aren't allowed to do business, but all-clear if you're a "delicate sculptor"), and on the other, when we reagrd the admonition as a protection for people to keep the sabbath holy, it leaves "liberal" workers with no moral right to refuse Sunday work.

Well of course it's not going to make sense if approached through the lens of class struggle.

Let's not act as if Fr. Jone made the definitive traditional teaching which is now beyond question. It's a book of moral theology with an imprimatur.

Let's additionally not pretend that pointing out a possible class prejudice in the interpretation equates to engagng in "class struggle," which implies a Marxist point is being made.

LausTibiChriste

Is executing enemies of the state on a Sunday considered servile work?

Asking for a friend...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

Bonaventure

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on May 21, 2024, 02:36:40 PMIs executing enemies of the state on a Sunday considered servile work?

Asking for a friend...

In Jorge's Sect, it's a sin.

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

Quote from: Severinus on May 21, 2024, 02:21:06 PMLet's not act as if Fr. Jone made the definitive traditional teaching which is now beyond question. It's a book of moral theology with an imprimatur.

Let's additionally not pretend that pointing out a possible class prejudice in the interpretation equates to engagng in "class struggle," which implies a Marxist point is being made.

I don't have it handy for quoting, but if I'm remembering it correctly, Prummer says virtually the same thing.
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Severinus

#29
Note that I'm not saying there is no distinction betwen servile and "liberal" work, nor saying that paid servile work is fine. I'm disputing that paid "liberal" work is fine. I think the operative distinction is whether the paid work or business transaction is necessary. This is also important to preserve the moral right of teachers, researchers, designers etc. to reject work obligations on Sundays. If "liberal" work is simply allowed, a researcher would not have a backing to object to terms of contract which obliged him to work, say, from noon to 8pm every Sunday. He could say "I personally don't like that" (though again, it's unclear on what basis religiously) but not "my religion prohibits that."