Whether political apathy is a mortal sin.

Started by Mono no aware, May 09, 2024, 08:52:14 AM

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Mono no aware

This is not about spiritual apathy.  For the purposes of the question, assume someone with a devout prayer life who believes in all the articles of the Catholic faith.  Would it be sinful, say, if such a person did not vote in an election where a pro-life candidate stood against a pro-abortion candidate?  Would it also be sinful for a Catholic living under a pro-abortion tyranny to not protest or resist their government?

I am particularly interested in how political apathy in a believing Catholic fundamentally differs from surrender to divine providence.  The corporal works of mercy do not seem to commend directly preventing evil.  Is it always incumbent on a Catholic to prevent evil?  "Offenses must needs come," "vengeance is mine, saith the Lord," "render unto Caesar," &c.  Or does political apathy fall implicitly under the condemnation of Quietism?

KreKre

#1
Quote from: Mono no aware on May 09, 2024, 08:52:14 AMWould it be sinful, say, if such a person did not vote in an election where a pro-life candidate stood against a pro-abortion candidate?  Would it also be sinful for a Catholic living under a pro-abortion tyranny to not protest or resist their government?
We had an election last month in my country. Two weeks before the election, my priest explicitly said during the sermon that it is: "a duty of all Christians to vote in the elections" and that "there is no doubt that giving support in elections to those who promote abortion, gender ideology, and same-sex unions, it is being accomplice in crime against Divine Law and thus a mortal sin, which brings us eternal ruin in Hell." He also added that those politicians who do nothing about those questions, even if they do not openly support them, also do not deserve our vote.

So, it's pretty clear. Go and vote for a Catholic politician who will work according to God's will, or someone who is the closest to that ideal politician if such does not exist.

When you pray: "adveniat regnum Tuum" what does that mean? It means the reign of Christ the King on Earth, as it is in Heaven.
Christus vincit! Christus regnat! Christus imperat!

LausTibiChriste

Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

KreKre

#3
I used to think that, too, but I trust my priest when he says otherwise. I voted and the party I voted for gained an unprecedented number of votes, so that now it is instrumental in forming the next government. Will that end abortion over night? Judging by the recent history, it is unlikely... But I trust and hope in God.

That said, I agree that democracy is bullshit. It is just a soft-form of communism. We pray: "Thy kingdom come", not "Thy autonomous anarcho-syndicalist collective come" :lol:
Christus vincit! Christus regnat! Christus imperat!

LausTibiChriste

Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

Mono no aware

Is voting inherently bullshit, or is it just bullshit because our modern democracies are so corrupt?

LausTibiChriste

Inherently bullshit.

Democracy has no place in a Christian world.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

KreKre

#7
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on May 09, 2024, 01:58:17 PMDemocracy has no place in a Christian world.
I agree. But while it exists, ignoring that it exists simply means giving up the worldly authority to your enemies. The fact you disagree with the concept of democracy (as any Christian should), does not mean that ignoring it will somehow stop it. It is a sin of omission to rest while injustice happens, if you can do something about it.

Christus vincit! Christus regnat! Christus imperat!

LausTibiChriste

Tell that to the martyrs who would (and did) rather have had their heads cut off than give one pinch to Caesar
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

KreKre

#9
What does that have to do with voting?

Of course you are not obligated to follow laws that force you to commit sin. Disobeying such a law at the price of martyrdom is the most noble thing one can do and the Lord will reward it.

But it is not martyrdom to sit idly at home and complain that democracy is bullshit, while you have an option to, at least, make a public statement by voting, regardless of how ineffective it might seem. It's just complacency.
Christus vincit! Christus regnat! Christus imperat!

LausTibiChriste

It's not complacency at all. You're making a public statement by not voting.

I mean, if I lived in Tulsa, maybe I'd think differently. But I don't, so....
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

KreKre

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on May 09, 2024, 02:20:47 PMYou're making a public statement by not voting.
Yes, it is a public statement, but not the one you think. That's a libertarian delusion that never worked in practice. The only public statement you're making is that you are complacent and that you have no objection to letting the enemy rule over you.
Christus vincit! Christus regnat! Christus imperat!

LausTibiChriste

Quote from: KreKre on May 09, 2024, 02:27:32 PM
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on May 09, 2024, 02:20:47 PMYou're making a public statement by not voting.
Yes, it is a public statement, but not the one you think. That's a libertarian delusion that never worked in practice. The only public statement you're making is that you are complacent and that you have no objection to letting the enemy rule over you.


Spoken like a true American
Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

Bonaventure

Quote from: Mono no aware on May 09, 2024, 08:52:14 AMThis is not about spiritual apathy.  For the purposes of the question, assume someone with a devout prayer life who believes in all the articles of the Catholic faith.  Would it be sinful, say, if such a person did not vote in an election where a pro-life candidate stood against a pro-abortion candidate?  Would it also be sinful for a Catholic living under a pro-abortion tyranny to not protest or resist their government?

No.

There has never been a truly "pro life" candidate since the 1960s in this country.

Have any publicly opposed:

All contraception
All abortion (even in case of rape or life of the mother)
Divorce

The Catholics who put their trust in the men of the Republican Party finally got their wish, and now that the abortion issue is now one of the "will of the people," have been peculiarly subdued in their support of Trump as the last great (White) hope.

I would say in the hypothetical situation you posed, the answer is "maybe."

Too many what ifs to definitively answer.

If you are alluding to 2024 United States, the answer is clearly no. One could support Trump as a lesser evil, but he is still an evil. No one is required to vote for him.

Protests have never been a requirement, but I would need clarification on what you mean by "resist" before giving my opinion.

KreKre

#14
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on May 09, 2024, 02:33:18 PMSpoken like a true American
Well, I'm not.

I hate democracy, I think the French Revolution was the worst thing that ever happened, with the possible exception of the October Revolution, and Vatican II. I think a hereditary Catholic monarchy is the only legitimate earthly social order. There should be no disagreement on that between us.

I, however, disagree with you that "not voting out of protest because democracy is bullshit" has the effect you think it does. It doesn't. The only effect of it is your enemy rejoicing at your act of surrender.
Christus vincit! Christus regnat! Christus imperat!