Engaging with the Eastern Orthodox liturgy

Started by DuxLux, April 19, 2024, 08:32:14 AM

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EastWest7

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 27, 2024, 08:48:00 AME.W.
Thank you once again for your kind words. I would love to get together with you some day; probably wont happen. Yes, I am open to adult beverages, as I love a good whisky, whether Bourbon or Scotch & Spanish brandy, beer etc.
I am mostly self educated on religious matters, as my formal catechism classed abruptly came to a close in the 5th grade; our Catholic school decided one day to stop teaching it???? Better than what came behind it, when they resumed teaching about it.
I love Catechisms, dogmatic manuals, and even just Church history.
On the Filioque topic, I just stumbled accross this video which sites an unbelievable number of both Western and Eastern Fathers on their views. Just the quote from St. Augustine on John 16. 13-15 will knock your socks off (3min 35 secs) "He will take what is mine": If he receives knowledge from the Son, He receives His essence also. Great stuff!

Michael,
Sounds like you have excellent taste in beverages. And your preferences as indicated above show a particularly catholic (universal, comprehensive) appreciation. I've never had Spanish brandy however I too, am a fan of good whiskies (usually prefer Scotch or Canadian), a vodka martini and beer - especially stouts and pilsners (of course native to the Greek-Catholic regions of the Czech Republic and Slovakia  :D  ).

Your being (generally) self-educated in theology is most impressive. Theology and music (IMO, anyway) seems to share something in common. That is, I think people with little or no formal education, yet who have a passion for the respective subject, often can run rings around those who have the "benefit" (?) of theological/musical training.

I appreciate the head's up on the Filioque video. And the mention of St Augustine on John 16:13-15. FYI, if you intended to post it here, I don't see it.

It's interesting about the varied opinions on it of both Eastern and Western Fathers. Myself, I am comfortable saying the Creed without it when I attend Eastern liturgies as well as saying the Creed with the Filioque at the TLMs (or my wife/children's very conservative novus ordo parish) that I sometimes attend.

Even back at St Vladimir's, Prof John Ericksen (Church history) was very careful to indicate that the Filioque was added in the West as a means of fighting the resurgence of Arianism in some regions of western Europe.

I think there is scriptural support for both views.

In the past week I saw a very interesting video on the essence-energies distinction by a Reformed Baptist theologian who I respect, Gavin Ortland, PhD. His YouTube channel is called Truth Unites. His discussion is rather supportive of the Eastern theology and it appears his thinking on the subject (as I think he openly states) has gradually changed over time. For me, it was interesting to hearing this - particularly as Dr Ortland is a firmly sola scriptura kind of guy. I'd post the vid however I still can't seem to figure out how to do that on the SD forum.
Thanks.         
Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Michael Wilson

#31
E.W. Thanks again, and always a pleasure;
Yipes! I forgot to post the vid!



QuoteI think there is scriptural support for both views.
If you watch the video you will come away with the opposite view (2 hours worth!).
Secondly, if you mean that a Catholic is free to hold either view (maybe I misunderstood you), this is not possible as the Filoque is "de fide" at least since the Council of Lyons.
I attended the Ukranian Catholic services for many years, and they do not mention the "Filioque" except at specific times during the year; which is no problem as they accept the doctrine.   
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

DuxLux

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 19, 2024, 05:17:15 PMThe very same icon can be venerated outside of said religious service, as long as it is a saint of the Catholic Church.

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between saints only venerated in Eastern Rite Catholicism and vice versa in the Latin Church? For example the case of Gregory Palamas?
"Dominus Illuminatio Mea" Psalmus XXVII; Universitas Oxoniensis

"Deus Lux Mea Est" Universitas Catholica Americae

"Ignoratio Scripturarum, ignoratio Christi est" Sancti Hieronymus

Michael Wilson

There should not be any saints that are venerated in one rite or the other; a saint in one rite is a saint in the whole Church. However there has been an "ecumenical" tendency in the Eastern rites towards Orthodoxy since Vatican II, corresponding to the ecumenical movement in the Western rites towards Protestantism. It results from the loss of the teaching that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and the necessity of belonging to the Church in order to be saved (understood as the Church has always understood this doctrine).
Palamas is not a saint, as he was never a Catholic and worse he rejected the Catholic doctrine on the simplicity/unity of the divine essence.
 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Ps. "Spanish Brandy": Locate a bottle of "Cardenal Mendoza" brandy in a liquor store near by; you are in for a rare treat. Spain has two different types of brandy, one from the Barcelona area (Torres Family) and another from Jerez; the second is the more "Spanish" of the two. Worth a try. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

EastWest7

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 10:21:42 AME.W. Thanks again, and always a pleasure;
Yipes! I forgot to post the vid!



QuoteI think there is scriptural support for both views.
If you watch the video you will come away with the opposite view (2 hours worth!).
Secondly, if you mean that a Catholic is free to hold either view (maybe I misunderstood you), this is not possible as the Filoque is "de fide" at least since the Council of Lyons.
I attended the Ukranian Catholic services for many years, and they do not mention the "Filioque" except at specific times during the year; which is no problem as they accept the doctrine. 

Well, Michael, I still haven't finished the previous Dimond brothers video you posted so will also attempt to take a stab at this one.

Regarding the Filioque issue at hand (ie., a Catholic holding either view), it is indeed problematic as (with the exception of the Melkites, the Byzantine Catholic jurisdiction which I joined the Church in 1986), I never heard the Filique omitted in Byzantine Ruthenian and Ukrainian parish liturgies until after Pope John Paul II's Orientale Lumen in May 1995 which, as perhaps you're aware, his apostolic letter basically said that the Eastern Catholic Churches should be true to their eastern patrimony (eg., ordain married men to the priesthood, say the Nicene Creed as it was said prior to  a western Council of Toledo, etc).
Although as I believe you are a sede, that letter probably won't matter.

I realize this is my subjective view, but I'm comfortable saying the Nicene Creed in Eastern Catholic parishes because of the East's historical understanding of John 15:26.
Now, having said that, I do accept the Filioque. I came to accept it (although I said it growing up in the Episcopal Church) shortly before I came into the Catholic Church in 1986 and eventually came to see it as superior to the older expression, "from the Father". Romans 8:9 was helpful. Also, as per an online comment I have read, that theologically speaking, the economy (oikonomia) of the Trinity should reflect the immanence of the Trinity.


As a humorous aside, I read a Reformed (generally Calvinist, "classic" protestant) online forum occasionally. A few years ago, there was a discussion of its well-educated, informed Reformed lay and clergy members. It was regarding the Filioque. The vast majority supported its use in the Nicene Creed. I think there may have been a few who did not - but some seemed to have been a somewhat knee-jerk, "anti-papist" mentality.
Anyway, LOL, one of its members (and a very bright guy, with whom I've occasionally had email discussions) made a comment saying that basically, protestants don't deal with the subject of the Filioque. And that, "The only ones who really deal with it are Catholics and EO, and that's usually when they tear each other apart."
True, that. Cracked me up!
         

     
Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

EastWest7

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 28, 2024, 04:27:16 PMPs. "Spanish Brandy": Locate a bottle of "Cardenal Mendoza" brandy in a liquor store near by; you are in for a rare treat. Spain has two different types of brandy, one from the Barcelona area (Torres Family) and another from Jerez; the second is the more "Spanish" of the two. Worth a try. 

Well, Michael the brandies you mention above certainly sound delicious. My mother and grandmother occasionally drank sherry, something of which I only developed a taste for during college...sherries and ports.

Does Cardenal Mendoza brandy resemble sherry or port in its taste?

Also, is Cardinal Mendoza a sede? SSPX? Novus ordo?  ;)   
Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

LausTibiChriste

Lord Jesus Christ, Son Of God, Have Mercy On Me A Sinner

EastWest7

Quote from: LausTibiChriste on April 29, 2024, 12:29:57 PM


LTC, OK, I picked up some of the Latin in this document from Rome.

Would you kindly provide a basic translation?
Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Bonaventure

Rome 17.02.1908

Most Blessed Father!
Andrey Szeptycki, Metropolitan of Halycz, Metropolitan of Kiev and Administrator of all Russia at the feet of His Holiness most humbly asks that faculties may be granted to him and also to confessors in communion with him for dispensing secular faithful from the law that forbids communicatio in sacris with the Orthodox, as many times as they will judge it in conscience to be opportune.


This document written by me Our Most Holy Father Pope Pius X deigned to sign with his hand the words "may be tolerated."

EastWest7

Quote from: Bonaventure on April 29, 2024, 01:39:05 PMRome 17.02.1908

Most Blessed Father!
Andrey Szeptycki, Metropolitan of Halycz, Metropolitan of Kiev and Administrator of all Russia at the feet of His Holiness most humbly asks that faculties may be granted to him and also to confessors in communion with him for dispensing secular faithful from the law that forbids communicatio in sacris with the Orthodox, as many times as they will judge it in conscience to be opportune.


This document written by me Our Most Holy Father Pope Pius X deigned to sign with his hand the words "may be tolerated."

Very interesting, and thanks Bonaventure(and LTC).
Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

Michael Wilson

Very good; but what are the circumstances? The Pope cannot dispense people from committing mortal sin; c.i.s. Is not an ecclesiastical law, but a divine one.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

E.W.
QuoteDoes Cardenal Mendoza brandy resemble sherry or port in its taste?

Also, is Cardinal Mendoza a sede? SSPX? Novus ordo?  ;)   
Its from the Sherry region, but not sweet; one can find the hints of sherry in the taste. Hard to describe, except it isn't dry like the French Cognacs;
I'm a big Porto man myself, and I usually buy a bottle for family get together's its a big hit
with my female relatives.
Here are the tasting notes of C.M.
QuoteCardenal Mendoza Clásico – Solera Gran Reserva (40%, Sánchez Romate, Brandy de Jerez)

Nose: one of the more punchy brandies, with wood spice and deep Pedro Ximénez aromas giving it extra character. Caramel, cinnamon pastry, prunes, hints of roasted coffee beans and mocha sweets. Some peppery oak and vanilla. Just a hint of orange peels.

Mouth: still punchy but nicely integrated. A mix of heavy raisin and fig sweetness, herbal notes (dark tea), vanilla pastry and dry nutty notes (hazelnut, walnut). Hints of dark chocolate. Medium finish, with herbal notes (light peppermint even).

Availability: good. As often, pricing shows significant differences between markets, from € 25 in Spain up to € 60 in other countries. Check The Whisky Exchange or Master of Malt for international shipping.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael Wilson

Here is more information on the Brandy and on the real Cardinal Mendoza
https://www.sherrynotes.com/2019/reviews/brandy-jerez/cardenal-mendoza-clasico-romate/
QuoteCardenal Mendoza Brandy (Romate)

    Cardenal Mendoza is one of the best-known Brandy de Jerez brands

Cardenal Mendoza is one of the leading brands when it comes to Brandy de Jerez. Produced by bodegas Sánchez Romate, is was named after Pedro Gonzales de Mendoza, who was a cardinal and archbishop of Spain in the 15th century and a key political figure to lobby for Columbus' first voyage to the Americas and the unification of Spain. In 1887 the Romate family decided to create a brandy for private consumption, but it quickly gained a reputation and was brought to the market. Nowadays brandy production is responsible for most of the profits of the bodega.

Cardenal Mendoza is produced from Airén grapes grown in the La Mancha region (South of Madrid), distilled in pot stills or alquitara
Brandy Cardenal Mendoza Clásico

Even this entry-level Cardenal Mendoza Clásico is already a Solera Gran Reserva brandy, the highest category which requires an average age of three years in oak. In fact Cardenal Mendoza is 15 years old on average, matured in a solera system with casks that have previously been seasoned with Oloroso and Pedro Ximénez sherry. The solera of Cardenal Mendoza is one of the largest in the sherry region and takes up a huge bodega area between the Calle Lealas and Calle Pizarro in the city centre of Jerez.

A parcel of Cardenal Mendoza barrels was set aside in 1981, in celebration of the bi-centenary of the bodega, and matured further to become the Cardenal Mendoza Carta Real.

On the Brandy Cardenal Mendoza website you'll find an overview of the house's sherry brandy, as well as many cocktail recipes with brandy or innovative pairings of brandy with chocolate or cigars.
I looked up his biography on wiki hoping to find some information on his relationship with the various Popes during the Western Schism, to see if he was a sede with at least one of the lines  :laugh:  but the schism  unfortunately had ended before he was born.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

EastWest7

Quote from: Michael Wilson on April 29, 2024, 04:44:42 PME.W.
QuoteDoes Cardenal Mendoza brandy resemble sherry or port in its taste?

Also, is Cardinal Mendoza a sede? SSPX? Novus ordo?  ;) 
Its from the Sherry region, but not sweet; one can find the hints of sherry in the taste. Hard to describe, except it isn't dry like the French Cognacs;
I'm a big Porto man myself, and I usually buy a bottle for family get together's its a big hit
with my female relatives.
Here are the tasting notes of C.M.
QuoteCardenal Mendoza Clásico – Solera Gran Reserva (40%, Sánchez Romate, Brandy de Jerez)

Nose: one of the more punchy brandies, with wood spice and deep Pedro Ximénez aromas giving it extra character. Caramel, cinnamon pastry, prunes, hints of roasted coffee beans and mocha sweets. Some peppery oak and vanilla. Just a hint of orange peels.

Mouth: still punchy but nicely integrated. A mix of heavy raisin and fig sweetness, herbal notes (dark tea), vanilla pastry and dry nutty notes (hazelnut, walnut). Hints of dark chocolate. Medium finish, with herbal notes (light peppermint even).

Availability: good. As often, pricing shows significant differences between markets, from € 25 in Spain up to € 60 in other countries. Check The Whisky Exchange or Master of Malt for international shipping.

I appreciate the Mendoza Clasico tasting notes, MW.

Hillbilly beer guy that I am, I must say that in reading about the Nose ("prunes", "roasted coffee") also Mouth ("raisin", "hazelnut, walnut), and ("dark chocolate") description of the brandy reminded me immediately of Komes Russian Imperial Stout, made in Poland (Hmmm...sounds like a true uniate product).
It's certainly a lot cheaper than Mendoza...for the last two winters I've been occasionally buying their bomber bottles (22oz?) for $3.95 each at an eastern European market, south of Akron, Ohio. It sure beats the $10 and up bottles I buy of other Russian Imperial Stout products.
Delicious - all that good taste plus the added bonus of a Byzantine Rite pedigree! Just the drink for barroom theologians.   
:beer:
Before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.