Engaging with the Eastern Orthodox liturgy

[Bonaventure]

@AlNg

I have reviewed your posting history and I am no dummy.

From the first day you have posted here, your posts have consisted in attempts to subtlety undermine belief in Roman Catholicism.

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=26222.msg545338#msg545338

The above is one example.

Numerous users such as @ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez and @Michael Wilson have called you out on this.

You have deflected and not answered.

As such, I am permanently banning you for trolling and posting in mala fide.[/ysize]

[Michael Wilson]

I have thought the same for a long  time; I couldn't put my finger on why the repeated questions on the same subject; why this obsession? He was anxious for me to engage him, and when I would stop, he would come back with some easy questions to get the dialogue going again in order to return to the real topic he was interested in promoting, just as it happened on this thread.

[Bonaventure]

I have thought the same for a long  time; I couldn't put my finger on why the repeated questions on the same subject; why this obsession? He was anxious for me to engage him, and when I would stop, he would come back with some easy questions to get the dialogue going again in order to return to the real topic he was interested in promoting, just as it happened on this thread.

I think that these types are also hoping that someone can answer them to their satisfaction so that they can "figure it out."

It's not 100% malicious, not always.

[queen.saints]

They do not officially legitimize divorce. It is tolerated in some circumstances (VERY rare), by SOME jurisdictions, as a last resort. You have to jump through more hoops to get divorced than to get annulled in the Catholic Church. I would happily bet $20 that at an institutional level the Catholic Church ends more marriages than the Orthodox do percentage wise.

You have to keep in mind, right or wrong, that it comes down to their sacramental theology too. Generally, in Eastern theology, the Church marries the couple, so the Church, in their eyes, has the authority to undo what it has done up, as it were.

I'm not saying it's right.

Which brings me to my next point which I have constantly said

There is no nuance or true introspection/humility, whatever you want to call it when we deal with each other (Catholics & Orthodox)

Catholics: They allow divorce
Orthodox: They allow gay marriage

And on and on it goes. A millennium of antagonistic tropes that, at this point, can only be overcome by God's intervention.

This is what I used to think as well, but it was actually not true, it was a lie from the devil.



Because when you cut back all the arguments about abuse to the system or East/West politics or the different understandings of who confers the sacrament etc etc, at the root of it all there is a fundamental and extremely important difference between a marriage actually being

"indissoluble" or


"not" even if you still call it that.


It changes literally everything.




Even if there were never a single divorce "permitted" among the Orthodox

(when in reality we see that Russia and other orthodox countries have some of the highest divorce rates in the world https://divorce.com/blog/divorce-rates-in-the-world/)

And even if they taught that divorce is extremely difficult to "obtain" and a "last resort"

(which they don't, they teach that sin itself is what breaks the bond and ends the marriage, making it a "legal fiction"

https://www.thyateira.org.uk/chapel/theorthodoxfaith/divorces/. And this same teaching is present in Orthodox writings going back to the start of the Schism- I will try to refind the source on that I found a few months ago. Just to say this is not intended as an unfair, biased, or modern misrepresentation of their actual belief, but an honest look at it from a fair angle.)


the fact that they teach that a sacramental marriage can ever be ended by anything but death is a destructive lie designed by the devil to ruin your life and your marriage.






What are the implications?



The thing that makes a marriage indissoluble is the sacramental aspect, the God element, not the human.


http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Matrimony.shtml



So what they're really saying is that God can fail.

That God makes promises He doesn't keep.

That when people trust God on their wedding day, their trust is unfounded.



And that's a lie.



God never fails.

God promised He will be with a marriage for life and He always keeps His promise.

[queen.saints]

And it's not being antagonist towards others to uphold our belief in God and the teachings of the Catholic Church, it's the only real compassion anyone can give. Because, as Catholics, we know that they can only be completely miserable in this life and the next otherwise and we don't wish that on our worst enemies.

[queen.saints]

 To be extra fair:


Look at the devastating effects of lies and heresies on Catholics as well when they lose sight of the true teachings of God and His Church. The only difference is that as Catholics we at least have the Truth and it's just a question of accepting it.

This article is from a conservative staunch Catholic site and yet the quotes from actual Church teaching are pointedly scarce and it's full of outright heresy:

https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/why-faithful-catholics-get-divorced


We see lines like:


"Catholic couples have very few options when things get really, really tough."

"Catholics can sometimes convince themselves that they aren't part of the same culture as the rest of the world. But we're all part of the culture."

[This one was particularly shocking and (of course probably accidentally) heretical]


"But what about the Faith? Shouldn't faith steel the assenting Catholic against the culture? In fact, it's the other way around. Faith needs a culture to stay strong. Worse, a self-righteous faith can lull Catholics into a false sense of security, a new Phariseeism convinced that intellectual assent to the right doctrines—not our humility and God's mercy—is what saves us."


And this one:

"Catholic couples "think that if you're punching your time clock, doing your duties to your faith, God promises to take care of your marriage. But your marriage has a life of its own, and if you don't do something about it, it's going to fester and it's going to explode."


"They expected marriage to be exalted, like the Book of Revelation, like the wedding feast of the Lamb."


"He said that priests fall into the trap in one of two ways. "On one extreme there's a sort of hyper-pastoralism, which becomes a constant placating of persons in distress. Here the priest will avoid doing anything that will make him the bad guy. Even, perhaps, at the expense of the Church's authentic teaching on marriage," he said. "On the other extreme is a doctrinaire spirit that can seem to be unaware of the real pain people experience in their day-to-day struggles with sin and failure and the fallen state of humanity."

"Dissenting Catholics often won't teach the doctrines that protect and guide marriage. Assenting Catholics, on the other hand, often won't address the real pitfalls and messiness of marriage because they detract from the doctrines that are under such vicious attack."


[And this one by the author was the most sad]

"I must confess, I was surprised by the story assignment when I was asked to investigate reports that a surprising number of young, on-fire, faithful Catholics were divorcing.

But the more I looked into it, the more I realized that my surprise was part of the problem. After all, from the beginning, marriage has always been the center of a great battle. No one should blithely expect that he's in a special class that is somehow spiritually protected."


"How to fight back? The obvious answer is better marriage preparation.

'The Vatican is begging for eight sessions' of preparation, said Dr. Mango."


Oh boy.