Engaging with the Eastern Orthodox liturgy

[Michael Wilson]

Over the years, (since the mid 1990s), I've seen St Gregory Palamas commemorated in every Melkite, Ruthenian and Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic parish in which I've attended (either on the Second Sunday of Lent or November 14, both days of his commemoration on the Orthodox calendar).
By commemoration I mean by the chanting of his troparion on that day, also his icon is placed in the normal location for veneration in the church (usually in the church entrance area or the center just prior to the steps that go up to the iconostasis and altar). Also, as indicated for the day in the parish's weekly bulletin.   

This is a major problem. Palamas was never a member of the Catholic Church, and was a herersiarch; his heterodox theory of the division of God into His essence and His energies, divides God and denies His simplicity. It wasn't that Palamas didn't know the Catholic doctrine of God, he knew it and denied and combated it. The commemoration of him in the various Eastern Catholic rites, shows the corruption of Vatican II has penetrated into the theology of these rites. It is a shame.

[AlNg]

the question of the status of the "Novus Ordo," these aren't articles of the faith.

That is interesting. I thought that it would be. For example, some Traditional Catholics say that the NO Mass is harmful to the faith. Considering that the Catholic Church is indefectible, can the Catholic Church promulgate a Mass as the official rite of the Church if it is harmful to the Catholic faith?

[LausTibiChriste]

Over the years, (since the mid 1990s), I've seen St Gregory Palamas commemorated in every Melkite, Ruthenian and Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic parish in which I've attended (either on the Second Sunday of Lent or November 14, both days of his commemoration on the Orthodox calendar).
By commemoration I mean by the chanting of his troparion on that day, also his icon is placed in the normal location for veneration in the church (usually in the church entrance area or the center just prior to the steps that go up to the iconostasis and altar). Also, as indicated for the day in the parish's weekly bulletin.   

This is a major problem. Palamas was never a member of the Catholic Church, and was a herersiarch; his heterodox theory of the division of God into His essence and His energies, divides God and denies His simplicity. It wasn't that Palamas didn't know the Catholic doctrine of God, he knew it and denied and combated it. The commemoration of him in the various Eastern Catholic rites, shows the corruption of Vatican II has penetrated into the theology of these rites. It is a shame.

Stay in your lane, Michael. The East has no need of the pity of sedevacantists

[Bonaventure]

the question of the status of the "Novus Ordo," these aren't articles of the faith.

That is interesting. I thought that it would be. For example, some Traditional Catholics say that the NO Mass is harmful to the faith. Considering that the Catholic Church is indefectible, can the Catholic Church promulgate a Mass as the official rite of the Church if it is harmful to the Catholic faith?

Good question. We have plenty of threads explicitly discussing the ramifications of your question. The search function may help you.

I have examined becoming Russian Orthodox.

However, I read the following words from Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew:

With the end of the Soviet Union and the bankruptcy of the Communist ideology, pseudo-religion emerged. The old imperial strategies were then combined with the cynical techniques and mechanisms developed and inherited from the Soviet Union. The church and the state leadership in Russia cooperated in the crime of aggression, and share the responsibility for the resulting crimes, like the shocking abduction of Ukrainian children. They have provoked enormous suffering not only to the Ukrainian people, but also to the Russians, who count more than 100,000 casualties and the responsibility for terrible atrocities. Our interreligious dialogue has to focus not only on ways to resist and neutralize the capacity of the leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate to undermine unity and to theologically legitimize criminal behavior. It is our common Christian duty to use our forces of dialogue to bring back our Russian brothers and sisters to our community of shared values.

Considering that the Primus Inter Pares called the Moscow patriarchate a "pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior," I decided against getting involved in that Church.

Can the Orthodox Church become a pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior?

[LausTibiChriste]

Can the Orthodox Church become a pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior?

No less so than what the Vatican gets up to today

[AlNg]

I'm interested in hearing your ideas on the present situation in the Church.

Thank you for your interest in that. I am trying to digest and make sense some of the contradictory information coming out from various sources, including for example, Michael Lofton, Brother Dimond (whose videos some SV have posted here), Marshall Taylor, Anthony Stine, this suscipe domine forum, Trent Horn, and a few others including those who advocate dropping the filioque from the creed. I have had a few conversations with Traditional Catholics and one thing I mentioned was my opinion that easy annulments given for flimsy reasons was similar to Church approved divorces. Well, the person who gives every indication that he is a strict hardcore Traditional Catholic disagreed and said he thought that the present loose NO annulment regulations were a good idea. I found out later that he is currently separated from his wife and with another woman. I also read a page from the SSPX which says not to disturb those who have received a NO annulment, unless they ask for a clarification from the SSPX. " If someone comes to our parish, having had a church annulment and is now remarried, we say nothing to them at all about it, we leave them in peace. " I don't see how Traditional Catholics can support the SSPX when this is what they teach about marriage annulments? And of course, the SSPX says that they are una cum Pope Francis. It is not that easy to make sense of things when they are contradictory. for example, it is said that the Conciliary Church is not the Catholic Church but is a counterfeit church headed by an imposter who masquerades as a Pope but really he is not the Pope. It is also said that Catholics are not allowed to attend non-Catholc religious services. But the SSPX is una cum the counterfeit non-Catholic Church. they say that they are not excommunicated from the Church. So it seems that  SSPX is part of the non-Catholic Conciliar counterfeit Church. And since its religious services are held under the auspices of the non-Catholic conciliar counterfeit Church (which is not the Catholic Church)  why are Catholics allowed to attend them? The Latin mass is a Catholic service of course, but the TLM is said in the western rite E. Orthodox Churches and are Catholics allowed to attend such a TLM as said in the EO western rite Churches?

[AlNg]

Considering that the Primus Inter Pares called the Moscow patriarchate a "pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior," I decided against getting involved in that Church.

Presently there is a schism between Moscow and Constantinople. There is a dispute over who between the Patriarchate of Moscow and the Patriarchate of Constantinople has canonical jurisdiction over the territory of Ukraine.

[AlNg]

We have plenty of threads explicitly discussing the ramifications of your question.

The ramifications are that Traditional Catholics are divided on the issue. I don't see the unity there.

[Michael Wilson]

why are Catholics allowed to attend them? The Latin mass is a Catholic service of course, but the TLM is said in the western rite E. Orthodox Churches and are Catholics allowed to attend such a TLM as said in the EO western rite Churches?

From everything that you wrote, it appears that you are a sede; which is quite surprising, given your past posting history.
The reason (in my opinion) that Catholics can attend a TLM offered "Una Cum" Pope Francis, is that there has not been any official declaration from a competent authority on the non-papacy of the Conciliar Popes.
All we have is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. On the other hand the E.O.'s have been excoed for centuries and since the split, have fallen into greater errors than just the rejection of the Filioque".
I myself attend "una cum" masses at the SSPX and Resistance chapels, and have no qualms about it. Even men like Bishops Sanborn and Dolan tolerated the practice for years after their split from the SSPX. I cannot suddenly become a Mortal sin, just because they have decreed otherwise.

[Bonaventure]

Can the Orthodox Church become a pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior?

No less so than what the Vatican gets up to today

And the reason why traditionalism exists.

[LausTibiChriste]

Can the Orthodox Church become a pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior?

No less so than what the Vatican gets up to today

And the reason why traditionalism exists.

Indeed.

It just occurred to me that the reasons Traditionalists use for "separating" from Rome are eerily similar, at face value, as those used by EOs to separate from Rome. Particularly when it comes to the limits of Papal Authority.



Of course it's not that simple, just an observation.

[Michael Wilson]

L.T.B.
If a person dances around the edge of a cliff long enough, they will eventually fall off.
Advice from a friend.

[EastWest7]

Can the Orthodox Church become a pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior?

No less so than what the Vatican gets up to today

And the reason why traditionalism exists.

Indeed.

It just occurred to me that the reasons Traditionalists use for "separating" from Rome are eerily similar, at face value, as those used by EOs to separate from Rome. Particularly when it comes to the limits of Papal Authority.



Of course it's not that simple, just an observation.

That's interesting LTC, as I have made the very same observation over the years.

[AlNg]

<<... ways to resist and neutralize the capacity of the leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate to... theologically legitimize criminal behavior. ...>>
Considering that the Primus Inter Pares called the Moscow patriarchate a "pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior," I decided against getting involved in that Church.

Are you OK with getting involved in a Church which  currently legitimizes divorce and remarriage by a policy of easily granting  marriage annulments for flimsy reasons? 

[Bonaventure]

<<... ways to resist and neutralize the capacity of the leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate to... theologically legitimize criminal behavior. ...>>
Considering that the Primus Inter Pares called the Moscow patriarchate a "pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior," I decided against getting involved in that Church.

Are you OK with getting involved in a Church which  currently legitimizes divorce and remarriage by a policy of easily granting  marriage annulments for flimsy reasons?

No more than I am with a church that officially legitimizes divorce. No annulment needed. Abusit non tollit usum.

As I've previously posted, your posts appear to me to be looking for a justification to become Orthodox. As I previously mentioned, be a catechumen for a year and see if that gets you anywhere.