Question about my penance

Started by Daniel, February 02, 2020, 01:36:52 PM

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Daniel

For a penance, a priest told me to pray a 15-decade rosary.
I explained to him that I am personally unable to pray the rosary (can't do the vocal prayers and the meditation at the same time), so he reduced the penance to just the vocal prayers.

So I prayed all the vocal prayers up until I got to the Salve regina at the end. But I began thinking, the Salve regina seems a little blasphemous. ("Our life"? That's Jesus, not Mary. "Our hope"? Again, that's Jesus, not Mary. "Show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb"? I'm not sure that Mary even has that sort of power.) So it seems kind of blasphemous, and, seeing as I don't know whether this prayer comes from the Church or from men, I didn't pray it.

Then came the response thing, "Pray for us O holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ"... I didn't pray that part either because the word 'worthy' kind of confuses me.

Lastly, I skipped the final prayer because it sounded irrelevant for my personal situation (the prayer mentions "meditating on the mysteries" whereas I personally wasn't doing any meditating). Though, in hindsight, I suppose I should have prayed this prayer on behalf of the people who do meditate on the mysteries.


I'm wondering whether I completed the penance, or whether I'll need to do the whole thing over. Are the Salve regina, and the response, and the follow-up prayer essential to the rosary?

edit - Come to think of it, I'm not even sure that the priest used the word "rosary". I think he just said to pray the "15 decades" (though my memory's not that good). This might be important, since the Salve regina etc. comes after the 15th decade...

dellery

Quote from: Daniel on February 02, 2020, 01:36:52 PM
For a penance, a priest told me to pray a 15-decade rosary.
I explained to him that I am personally unable to pray the rosary (can't do the vocal prayers and the meditation at the same time), so he reduced the penance to just the vocal prayers.

So I prayed all the vocal prayers up until I got to the Salve regina at the end. But I began thinking, the Salve regina seems a little blasphemous. ("Our life"? That's Jesus, not Mary. "Our hope"? Again, that's Jesus, not Mary. "Show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb"? I'm not sure that Mary even has that sort of power.) So it seems kind of blasphemous, and, seeing as I don't know whether this prayer comes from the Church or from men, I didn't pray it.

Then came the response thing, "Pray for us O holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ"... I didn't pray that part either because the word 'worthy' kind of confuses me.

Lastly, I skipped the final prayer because it sounded irrelevant for my personal situation (the prayer mentions "meditating on the mysteries" whereas I personally wasn't doing any meditating). Though, in hindsight, I suppose I should have prayed this prayer on behalf of the people who do meditate on the mysteries.


I'm wondering whether I completed the penance, or whether I'll need to do the whole thing over. Are the Salve regina, and the response, and the follow-up prayer essential to the rosary? (Come to think of it, I'm not even sure that the priest used the word "rosary". I think he just said "15 decades".)

???

Mother of mercy: our life, sweetness, and our hope... what is there to misunderstand about this?
Blessed Mary is the mother of Christ who is all those things, exactly as the prayer is saying.
Christ is the blessed fruit of Her womb.
You're asking Her to lead you to Christ.

No, you didn't complete your penance.

Go back to confession and tell the priest how you arrogantly judged, second-guessed, and failed to complete your penance.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

Daniel

I don't have a problem with the "Mother of mercy" part. I agree that if she's the Mother of God then she's also the Mother of mercy, since God is mercy.

But note, it doesn't say "Mother of mercy, of our life, of our sweetness, and of our hope". It says "Mother of mercy: our life, our sweetness, and our hope". As in, it makes Mary out to be our life and our hope.

In what sense is she "our life"? Sounds blasphemous: God is our life.

In what sense is she "our hope"? Sounds blasphemous: God is our hope. (Mary can be a help to us, but we're not supposed to hope in her. That's superstitious, just as hoping in any other creature is superstitious.)

The blessed fruit of her womb is Christ. But how does she "show" us Christ? She can ask God to save us, but her asking isn't what saves us. Ultimately it's up to God.

Gardener

The key to scruples is strict obedience, Daniel.

The history of the prayer shows one of two things:

1) You're misunderstanding how to understand it
2) the organization which prays it is wrong

Which do you think?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salve_Regina

Just do your penance and tell your confessor you are scrupulous so he understands what he is dealing with.


"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Philip G.

You completed your penance.  The rosary is the apostles creed, an our father, three hail mary's, a glory be, then 15 decades of the our father, hail mary, and glory be, and you are done. 
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

St.Justin

Quote from: Philip G. on February 02, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
You completed your penance.  The rosary is the apostles creed, an our father, three hail mary's, a glory be, then 15 decades of the our father, hail mary, and glory be, and you are done.

The origin of this prayer is unclear, but it was set down in its current form at the Abbey of Cluny in the 12th century, and has been widely used in Catholic liturgy since that time. It is commonly said after the completion of the rosary. Liturgically, it is one of four prescribed Marian anthems recited after the office of compline

Xavier

Daniel, we your brothers and sisters in Christ and His Church will be praying for you. I'll remember you in my Rosaries. Please just complete the simple prayers the Priest has taught and told you to complete without trying to judge him or judges those prayers, please. They are all lovely, very beautiful prayers used by the Church for millenia that have always produced eminent fruits of sanctity. Clutch the Mother of God very lovingly as you would your own dearest Mother and hold on to Her tightly, saying many prayers in honor of Her Immaculate Heart, especially the Hail Mary and the Hail Holy Queen very often; even throughout the day, you can sing the Ave Maria if you know to. She will keep you ever close to the Sacred Heart of Her Divine Son, and ever growing in grace and virtue, in happiness and in holiness, and God will bless all your endeavors. May Jesus and Mary bless you.

Xavier.

Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

TheReturnofLive

#7
Quote from: St.Justin on February 02, 2020, 07:31:57 PM
Quote from: Philip G. on February 02, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
You completed your penance.  The rosary is the apostles creed, an our father, three hail mary's, a glory be, then 15 decades of the our father, hail mary, and glory be, and you are done.

The origin of this prayer is unclear, but it was set down in its current form at the Abbey of Cluny in the 12th century, and has been widely used in Catholic liturgy since that time. It is commonly said after the completion of the rosary. Liturgically, it is one of four prescribed Marian anthems recited after the office of compline

There's an argument to be made it's actually earlier.

There is an expensive book called the "Anthology of Patristic Prayers," compiled and translated by the Greek Bishop Nicholas Hatzinikolaou. It is a compilation of prayers translated from Greek to English from the Church Fathers.

Among these prayers is this prayer, purportedly written by Isaac the Syrian from the 7th century:

"Rejoice! O Lady, Mother of mercy,
life, sweetness and our hope, rejoice!
To you we cry, the children of Eve in exile.
Upon you we gaze,
groaning and wailing in this valley of lamentation.
Wherefore, go ahead, our defender,
turn your compassionate eyes to us
and with this look show us Jesus
the blessed fruit of your womb,
O sweet Virgin Mary."

Interesting.

Whether it was actually written by Isaac the Syrian is another question, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were the case, considering how influential his prayers and liturgical texts were in the East.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Daniel

#8
Quote from: Gardener on February 02, 2020, 02:07:04 PM
The history of the prayer shows one of two things:

1) You're misunderstanding how to understand it
2) the organization which prays it is wrong
#2 begs the question. I'd accept #1, that there is some misunderstanding on my part, if I knew that the Salve regina was a prayer of the Church. But as it stands, I don't know this. For all I know, the Salve regina might be a prayer of man, inserted into the liturgy by man, and prayed only by man. And unlike the Church, man can be wrong.

clau clau

Father time has an undefeated record.

But when he's dumb and no more here,
Nineteen hundred years or near,
Clau-Clau-Claudius shall speak clear.
(https://completeandunabridged.blogspot.com/2009/06/i-claudius.html)

Gardener

Quote from: Daniel on February 03, 2020, 05:29:47 AM
Quote from: Gardener on February 02, 2020, 02:07:04 PM
The history of the prayer shows one of two things:

1) You're misunderstanding how to understand it
2) the organization which prays it is wrong
#2 begs the question. I'd accept #1, that there is some misunderstanding on my part, if I knew that the Salve regina was a prayer of the Church. But as it stands, I don't know this. For all I know, the Salve regina might be a prayer of man, inserted into the liturgy by man, and prayed only by man. And unlike the Church, man can be wrong.

The Liturgy (Mass and Office) is the public prayer of the Church. To accept the Church could be teaching incorrectly in her public prayer completely takes away the entire point.

It has origins in both East and West. It's very old (see Return's post). It's not like this is some Paul VI unenforceable accretion. It's something which has been said by the lips, thought by the minds, and borne in the hearts of innumerable saints and theologians a reality: holiness and beatitude.

Or maybe you're right.

Which do you think is plausible?
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Daniel

#11
Quote from: Gardener on February 03, 2020, 07:23:22 AM
It's not like this is some Paul VI unenforceable accretion.

How do we know? If men are able to corrupt the Church's liturgy today, why couldn't they have begun to corrupt it a thousand plus years ago? Suppose a thousand years goes by and the world has not yet come to its end. Would the stuff of Paul VI magically have become the prayer of the Church, simply because the Church has been silent for a thousand years as churchmen have continued to pray it?


Or maybe you're right and the Salve regina actually is a prayer of the Church, in which case I must be reading it wrong. But how am I to know? And how am I to pray it if I'm reading it wrong?


edit - I'm trying to make an appointment to see a priest. If he's able to meet with me then I think I'll bring the question up with him.

John Lamb

Daniel, you seem like a man who really needs to understand something fully before committing to it. In my opinion you should be less serious and more relaxed. The Salve Regina has been prayed by the Church and her saints for centuries, so you don't need to understand it perfectly before praying it. Your understanding will develop over time if you're patient enough. Understanding in spiritual matters is given more by the Holy Spirit than by thought.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

Philip G.

Daniel - I do not discourage your inquisitive inclination.  I only advise that you be wise when thinking out loud.  Not to do so can result in a borderline type of trolling.  I would know, because I have been guilty of it.  In this case, the only question you really needed to ask was, what prayers comprise the rosary.

For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

Daniel

Quote from: Philip G. on February 03, 2020, 03:46:56 PM
I only advise that you be wise when thinking out loud.  Not to do so can result in a borderline type of trolling. [. . .] In this case, the only question you really needed to ask was, what prayers comprise the rosary.

Yes, I really should stop doing that.

Sorry, everyone.