A challenge for those on this forum who are pro-NATO and pro-Ukraine

Started by Greg, September 26, 2022, 02:38:53 AM

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Xavier

Ok, I'll play.

1) Firstly, no one "worships" NATO; NATO is just a military alliance of 30 countries (soon to be 32) that, by Peace through Strength, helped the west avoid war with Russia for 75 years and helped win the Cold War without WWIII. Peace through Strength saves Millions of Lives. Article 5 etc and Russia/China don't want to risk that. Recently, NATO woke up to the China Threat. Communist countries won't be stopped otherwise than by strength; if you think they will, then go ahead and try other means, and I will watch them fail. But it may be too late when you realize appeasement or anything else will not work. None of this means NATO is perfect or anything; it's just a necessity. Also, Communist countries are increasingly allying with Radical Islamists. Islamist have long dreamt of invading Europe, at least since Lepanto. They just haven't been able to until recently. Any chance you actually want Europe to be invaded by Communists+Islamists, Greg? If no, NATO is a military alliance that prevents all that.

Our Lady showed, by Signal Graces, She was against the Soviet Union in 1984, which means She used NATO for Her own Purposes also: "Less than two months later in 1984, on May 13, the 67th anniversary of the first apparition of Fatima, catastrophe hit the Russia fleet at the Severomorsk naval base located near Finland on the Barents Sea.

A fire, believed caused by a cigarette, turned catastrophic. Like a spark in a huge fireworks factory, it triggered the explosion of a huge stockpile of missiles.

Of 900 anti-aircraft missiles, 580 were destroyed. Of 400 surface-to-surface missiles able to carry nuclear warheads, 320 were obliterated. Upwards of 300 military personnel died.

It devastated the Soviet Union's Northern Fleet."

Taken from: https://www.ncregister.com/blog/how-our-lady-saved-the-world-from-a-nuclear-war

2) Secondly, there's a lot of misinformation out there about what happened in 2014. Putin attacked on 20 Feb. Yanukovych was ousted on 22 Feb. Russia invaded Crimea in Ukraine on 27 Feb. They held one of their sham referendums, which is a well known Communist tactic (as Stalin said, and what Communists in the West did with Biden too to remove Trump) and annexed it. They planned to do the same to Kyiv this year, but got badly and unexpectedly defeated by Ukraine under Pres. Zelensky: "The Russo-Ukrainian War[18][d] has been ongoing between Russia (alongside Russian separatists in Ukraine) and Ukraine since February 2014.[e] Hostilities were initiated by Russia shortly after Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity and were focused on the political status of Crimea and the Donbas, which remain internationally recognized as part of Ukraine ...

On 22 February 2014, Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych was ousted from office as a result of the Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity, which broke out after his decision to reject the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement and instead pursue closer ties with Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union ... Simultaneously, unmarked Russian troops moved into Ukraine's Crimea and took control of strategic positions and infrastructure, including the Crimean Parliament on 27 February 2014." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War

No one needs to agree with what was done then to believe Ukraine is justified now. Some of the Ukrainian people were in favor of closer ties with the EU and some with Russia. The Ukrainian people are free to choose whatever they wanted to choose on that. Choosing the EU no more gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine than Ukraine choosing Russia would have given the EU the right to invade Ukraine. Or do you want to maintain the EU could?

3) Finally, reposting my answer on Just War from the other thread - one of the conditions for Just War is: "the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory If you claim you are going to save 1000s, but end up displacing Millions, that is not a Just War. People here will probably disagree, but that's that.

Fr. Bogdan used a similar argument to conclude: "On several occasions, the Russians did not allow humanitarian missions to enter Mariupol or other occupied cities to deliver food or evacuate civilians. This army, which came "to save the Russian-speaking population," almost wiped out Mariupol, a city of more than four hundred thousand people, mostly Russian-speaking."

From: https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/interview-priest-society-saint-josaphat-war-ukraine-73867 The SSJK are Eastern Traditional Catholics affiliated with the SSPX.

For me, it's very clear the Kremlin is engaging in similar propaganda as it was when it claimed its invasion of Poland was to help Ukrainians (how ironic): "The Soviet government announced it was acting to protect the Ukrainians and Belarusians who lived in the eastern part of Poland". People who are intent on waging war on any pretext will find some excuse to justify them.

Lastly, I find it interesting that new Pro-Life Italian Catholic PM Giorgia Melon was Pro-Russia until 2022. So was I and many other Catholics. But after the invasion began, she then stopped supporting Russia and is now Pro-Ukraine. That to me shows people who were more than willing to give Russia a chance now oppose its actions because of the unjustified aggression only. Period.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Greg

None of the NATO and EU sycophants on the forum have risen to the challenge.

How disappointing.

1. In February, 2014, the U.S. orchestrated and effected a violent coup which overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine. The U.S. then installed its puppet government.  We know this from the Nuland recordings. Since that time, the U.S. has been the de facto government of Ukraine and has made all major policy decisions for that country. This process is known in Washington as "spreading democracy". It does this a lot when some government fails to follow U.S. orders.

2. A large number of Ukrainian citizens were not pleased to have their democratically elected government overthrown and a new government chosen for them by the U.S. They decided to not recognize this illegitimate government. As a result of the division of loyalties stirred up by the U.S. coup, the people in Crimea voted to withdraw from Ukraine and become a part of Russia, to which Russia agreed. Other Ukrainians in the Donbass voted to become independent of Ukraine but were not made a part of Russia.
These actions greatly displeased the Hegemon.

3. The U.S./Ukrainian government decided to deal with the dissenters in the Donbass by attacking them with heavy weaponry. This assault did not go well at first because the majority of the Ukrainian military forces refused to kill their fellow Ukrainians. The U.S./Ukrainian government solved that problem by utilizing the numerous neo-Nazis who were on hand and were eager to kill the mostly ethnic Russians in the Donbass. Over the next eight years approximately 14,000 Ukrainians were killed by this operation, most of them civilians. As far as I know, there was not one tear shed or one word of sympathy expressed by the people in the U.S. for even one of the Ukrainian citizens murdered in the Donbass.

4. During the eight years following its 2014 coup, the U.S. armed and trained its Ukrainian neo-Nazis who were serving it so well in the war in the Donbass, as well as Ukrainian military regular troops. In that process, the U.S. did a good job of indoctrinating the troops into its way of thinking, thereby somewhat weakening the resolve of even the regulars (as opposed to the Nazis and other far right elements) to not kill other Ukrainians. The slaughter of civilians in the Donbass continued.

5. During this same eight-year period, Russia tried in every conceivable way to resolve the mess made by the U.S. coup by diplomacy and agreement. Two agreements were made (the "Minsk Agreements") which would have resolved the matter. However, the U.S./Ukrainian government refused to implement the agreements. Russia appealed to the U.N. for help but received none. The U.S. steadfastly refused to negotiate in good faith to resolve the issues, including Russia's legitimate and urgent security concerns.

6. Russia's legitimate and urgent security concerns must be taken into account. No valid understanding of the current issues can be understood without doing so. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, NATO had foolishly and provocatively expanded farther and farther to the east to the point that Russia was greatly threatened by NATO countries surrounding it. The goal of the U.S. was to make Ukraine into a client state, arm it to the teeth, including missiles which could reach Russia in three minutes or so, and to ultimately effect regime-change in Russia. The hyper aggression of the U.S. toward Russia was open and obvious.

7. In December, 2021, Russia presented detailed proposals to NATO and the U.S. for the peaceful resolution of the ongoing attacks by the U.S./Ukrainian government against the Ukrainians in the Donbass and Russia's legitimate security concerns. The proposals were rejected out of hand, followed by a refusal to negotiate in good faith with Russia. Russia had made it clear that in that event, it had no option but to take matters into its own hands. The U.S. in fact wanted a proxy war with Russia, in which Ukraine would be used as its Cat's paw. It got it.

I fail to see that Russia had any option other than to force the neutralization of Ukraine. Otherwise, it was perfectly clear that the U.S. was going to use Ukraine as a de facto military base and further encroach on and intimidate Russia.  Can anyone else to tell me another option available to Russia. The invocation of "international law" did not do Russia any good. This is particularly so because in this case Russia was dealing with an outlaw state, which has not only rejected international law, but has a long history of conducting illegal wars of aggression and dealing in bad faith with other nations.
"The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge: he shall wash his hands in the blood of the wicked."[Psalms 57:11]

Greg

Before I even bother to reply to a curry munching troll you need to update yourself on the timeline of the 2014 coup and revise your bullshit waste of time post so that it fits the historical facts.

The Victoria Nuland call and the Vitaly Klitschko emails pre-date any action on Crimea by weeks.  Russia already knew what they were planning and plotting to do.  Under such circumstances annexing Crimea which is full of Russian speakers is perfectly justifiable.

https://popularresistance.org/chronology-of-the-ukrainian-coup/

Anyone vaguely intelligent and familiar with the situation care to challenge this?
"The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge: he shall wash his hands in the blood of the wicked."[Psalms 57:11]

Xavier

Oh my God. Some of you are horrible people. You insult Africans, Asians, Indians, anyone you don't like with all kinds of racist taunts and slurs.

Reply or don't reply just as you like. You yourself were challenging others to reply. I replied so that you could not say no one could answer your challenge.

My timeline is completely correct. I gave the sources and references for it.

You do not understand the Moral Theology of Just War. Neither the Victoria Nuland call nor the Klitschko emails give Russia any right to cause and invasion that has led to millions of people being displaced. There were many other ways to deal with it.

Consult Fr. Bogdan of the SSJK in the SSPX link and the other source I gave. Russia's Invasion does not meet Just War criteria.

Fr. Bogdan: "For example, he could analyze the position of the Catholic bishops of Ukraine. He instead considers Ukrainians only as an object of manipulations by western globalists and that is offensive to us. Our country is not just a battlefield between the United States and Russia, it is a sovereign country with a population of about 40 million people with one of the biggest areas in Europe. And it is our country that was attacked by Russia, and it is our army that spends a war for the freedom of our people." https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/interview-priest-society-saint-josaphat-war-ukraine-73867
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Kaesekopf

Quote from: Xavier on September 27, 2022, 06:42:08 AM
Oh my God. Some of you are horrible people. You insult Africans, Asians, Indians, anyone you don't like with all kinds of racist taunts and slurs.

You clatter on about "Peace Through Strength" and praise "Signal Graces" that "Our Lady" sent (where 300 men died, mind you), and yet get your knickers in a twist over a few words about your diet?  :lol: 

Armchair warrior par excellence. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

awkward customer

Quote from: Kaesekopf on September 27, 2022, 07:24:06 AM
Quote from: Xavier on September 27, 2022, 06:42:08 AM
Oh my God. Some of you are horrible people. You insult Africans, Asians, Indians, anyone you don't like with all kinds of racist taunts and slurs.

You clatter on about "Peace Through Strength" and praise "Signal Graces" that "Our Lady" sent (where 300 men died, mind you), and yet get your knickers in a twist over a few words about your diet?  :lol: 

Armchair warrior par excellence.

He's playing the race card.

Xavier

In the other thread, someone was defending calling Africans negroes. I don't think some of you - outside your western bubble - understand how people around the world feel about such clearly racially tainted insults. Go ahead, folks, go ahead and do what you want. We'll see how all this ends up.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

Kaesekopf

Quote from: Xavier on September 27, 2022, 08:34:16 AM
In the other thread, someone was defending calling Africans negroes. I don't think some of you - outside your western bubble - understand how people around the world feel about such clearly racially tainted insults. Go ahead, folks, go ahead and do what you want. We'll see how all this ends up.

Maybe... maybe they do know? 

And maybe they just don't care? 

Shocker, I know. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

Greg

Given what happened to Donetsk when they tried to vote themselves out of a Ukraine after it was taken over by a US coup, (they were shelled by neo Nazis sponsored by America), you could reasonably argue that the Crimeans and Russia did the most sensible and prudent thing in having a rapid referendum and getting out without any deaths of Ukrainians or Russians.

Would 14,000 Crimeans be slaughtered today if Crimea was fighting for its independence.  Very probably they would.

"The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge: he shall wash his hands in the blood of the wicked."[Psalms 57:11]

james03

QuoteIn the other thread, someone was defending calling Africans negroes.

You need to call out the blacks who run the United Negro College Fund.

https://uncf.org/

In America, negro and coloreds were the first terms used depending on region.  Afterwards it went to black.  Now it is African American, though most people still use black.  In certain areas they still use negro and coloreds.  These terms were never considered a pejorative.

"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

GMC

"Negro" in Spanish means "black", color or race, without any negative connotation, it's a merely descriptive word. I guess this word was incorporated into American English by contact with the Spanish.

Why are this word and "nigger" so offensive in America? I guess Nigeria comes from nigger.

Searching seems that "nigger" and "negro" meant "slave" in old times, and that's why it has that connotation. Is that or is there something else?

Also is "nigga", which is what some black americans call themselves but it's offensive if you call them that.

I always use "black" in english.

Greg

I use "nig nog" .  It has a nice sound to it.  It is a "woody word".

I will have to stop when one of my nieces and nephews marries one.

"The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge: he shall wash his hands in the blood of the wicked."[Psalms 57:11]

james03

Nigger is a pejorative similar to kike.  Negro is not, hence United Negro College Fund.  Colored is not.  Hence National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).

Why did nigger become a pejorative?  Don't know, just custom.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

diaduit

Quote from: Greg on September 27, 2022, 02:49:42 AM
Why are the NWO orchestrating a war against themselves then?

Why all the complex plotting and delay?  If they have all the major powers onside (those with nuclear weapons) just roll out global government already.

They don't need to crash the world economy.  Just roll out the new global currency and reset the world.  If Russia and China are onside with the Great Reset plan then there is nothing to stop them?  They could EASILY crush street protests.  Those are a joke in terms of what they can achieve.  All they do is tell you how many people give a shit enough to take a train to the protest and spend a day in town.

Look at the 80% of morons who had the risky jab because they were weak minded.  Cancel their bank accounts and make them spend globalists credits for food and 99.9% of the world would HAVE to go along with it and join the system.

Why all this complexity?  If all major countries are on board they don't need to sell it to the population.  They don't need Hollywood plots of nefarious double and triple crosses.  Just force it on everyone globally.  There is nothing that could be done if there is no resistance at a level that has an effective military.

How are they plotting against themselves .... you will never see George Soros son on the frontline, neither Zelensky or Putins kin, their wealth is well protected and sitting in a London safe house.  Plotting against themselves implies that they will suffer from the plot, not a hells chance of that.  What they are doing is using our sons and daughters as pawns to engineer a WWIII (Our Lady predicted and other visionaries) to put the final nail in the coffin of the old world pre 2020.  Russia, China, Brazil and India I think are making a new crypto currency and now the poor West will have to come up with one to compete with nasty Putins one .......and in a couple of years, it will be the one world currency and oh we will need a digital id and be able to imprint it onto our bodies.

https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/russia-could-legalise-cryptocurrencies-means-payment-industry-minister-2022-05-18/

https://www.ledgerinsights.com/digital-euro-legislation-cbdc/

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide-digital-identity-and-security/government/magazine/eu-digital-id-wallet-coming-heres-what

While you're asking why this, why that ....they are ploughing ahead and its coming.  Putin is not going to destroy the decadent West, he will destroy the old world.





Greg

Prime Minister of Japan was recently murdered.  Other heads of state are occasionally killed.  The odd Cabinet minister is murdered by say the IRA.  Brighton Bombing.

Are they not in on the plot too?

If I believed they had that level of control and co-ordination I would give up and slit my wrists.  I simply don't believe humans are that capable of effecting complex plans or indeed in control to the degree you fear they are.  If they were they would have enslaved us years ago and never allow the population to get to 8 billion and the Brazilian Rain forest to be cut down and plastic islands of junk to be floating around in the Pacific.

They have a wish list sure.  But it is MUCH harder to get powerful people to all pull in the same direction precisely because they are psychopaths and don't want to co-operate with other powerful people.  They are competitive and jealous and don't want to work as a team.  They all want power and that is not possible in the scheme you propose.
"The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge: he shall wash his hands in the blood of the wicked."[Psalms 57:11]