Author Topic: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will  (Read 4058 times)

Offline Justin Martyr

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2021, 09:14:57 PM »
Quote
Man simply refuses to co-operate with it unless moved by efficient grace.
  We're talking about regenerated man filled with Sanctifying Grace.  Why would he always refuse an Actual Grace?  This really comes across as dung pile covered with snow.

Quote
For myself, my motivation is because I find the distinction accords with Scripture, the Pre-Tridentine (really, Pre-Jesuit) tradition of the Church, Saint Augustine and (more importantly) Saint Thomas.

Do you have any cite where St. Thomas distinguishes between sufficient grace and efficacious grace, or even where it can be implied?

One final question, you never answered what error you believe the sufficient/efficacious system opposes.  Go back and read my defense against the "God is in your debt" argument.

He rejects it as a result of not choosing to will it. That's the sole cause of his rejection. Not any inability on man's part. That man chooses to reject God unless God helps man to choose him is just what man does. "The human heart is wicked and deceitful above all things". That doesn't make the choice any less free or any less blameworthy. Also, God is the first cause of and present in every good that is. Of course whenever man does good it is because God willed it to be so; if God did not first will it man could not be the secondary cause of the good he does to begin with.

As far as I'm aware Saint Thomas doesn't use the exact terms. Though, the distinction is based on St. Thomas' distinction between God's antecedent and consequent will, as well as his teachings on predestination in the portion of the Summa dedicated to it.

I don't posit the distinction primarily to avoid an error, though it does oppose a denial of the universal salvific will (Calvin didn't make the distinction, for example) and helps oppose Semi-Pelagianism (by ensuring God is the cause of election rather than our merits).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 09:26:14 PM by Justin Martyr »
One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?
The Canticle of Canticles, 6:8-9

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal — who allow scandals to destroy faith —are guilty of spiritual suicide.
St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2021, 11:44:47 AM »
Banezians get around being charged with denying God's universal salvific will with their system, by stating that with God's "sufficient" grace, man has the potency to assent to God's grace; but of course they also add that man, because of Original Sin, will infallibly reject God's grace. So "potentially" God does offer all men the graces necessary to be saved.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline james03

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2021, 02:32:40 PM »
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That man chooses to reject God unless God helps man to choose him is just what man does.

My complaint against the Banezian system is confirmed:  "It seems the proponents of Banez lose sight of the original actual Grace.".

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though it does oppose a denial of the universal salvific will

Another observation I made is confirmed:  "Many people talk about a single grace, a super duper magical grace.  No, God gives us a multitude of actual graces throughout our lives.

Men reject it over and over again, including me and including you.".

There is no need for this distinction to oppose a denial of the universal salvific will.  The Lord sends countless graces.  We reject a lot of them, even those in Sanctifying Grace.

Quote
and helps oppose Semi-Pelagianism (by ensuring God is the cause of election rather than our merits).
  Our merits have no bearing on election, as our merits are solely due to Sanctifying Grace, which was freely given.  So this system is not needed.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2021, 11:22:51 AM »
Quote
Though, the distinction is based on St. Thomas' distinction between God's antecedent and consequent will, as well as his teachings on predestination in the portion of the Summa dedicated to it.
  Please provide cites and the logic behind this.  I'm not seeing it.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2022, 10:06:00 PM »
Quote
Man simply refuses to co-operate with it unless moved by efficient grace.
  We're talking about regenerated man filled with Sanctifying Grace.  Why would he always refuse an Actual Grace?  This really comes across as dung pile covered with snow.

Quote
For myself, my motivation is because I find the distinction accords with Scripture, the Pre-Tridentine (really, Pre-Jesuit) tradition of the Church, Saint Augustine and (more importantly) Saint Thomas.

Do you have any cite where St. Thomas distinguishes between sufficient grace and efficacious grace, or even where it can be implied?

One final question, you never answered what error you believe the sufficient/efficacious system opposes.  Go back and read my defense against the "God is in your debt" argument.

He rejects it as a result of not choosing to will it. That's the sole cause of his rejection. Not any inability on man's part. That man chooses to reject God unless God helps man to choose him is just what man does. "The human heart is wicked and deceitful above all things". That doesn't make the choice any less free or any less blameworthy. Also, God is the first cause of and present in every good that is. Of course whenever man does good it is because God willed it to be so; if God did not first will it man could not be the secondary cause of the good he does to begin with.

As far as I'm aware Saint Thomas doesn't use the exact terms. Though, the distinction is based on St. Thomas' distinction between God's antecedent and consequent will, as well as his teachings on predestination in the portion of the Summa dedicated to it.

I don't posit the distinction primarily to avoid an error, though it does oppose a denial of the universal salvific will (Calvin didn't make the distinction, for example) and helps oppose Semi-Pelagianism (by ensuring God is the cause of election rather than our merits).

Sorry for the thread dig up, but this is one of the Banezian Thomist takes that irks the heck out of me and shame on Domingo Banez and Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange (GL) for putting it forward.

Here's why:

Semi-Pelagianism posits that man does something then God finishes it with grace.

But that's not at all what is being argued in the acceptable Catholic Systems outside of Banezian Thomism. What those systems argue, and even Banezian puts forth, is that God gives a grace first. In the Banezian system that grace is "sufficient" (read: insufficient). In the other systems, that grace is also sufficient (read: sufficient).

So it's not Semi-Pelagianism, since man is secondary and by his Free Will chooses whether or not to cooperate. That man responds to the grace positively doesn't somehow make God secondary since the grace was supplied in the first by God; rather, to use the imagery of GL it is like a seed which, if not rejected, reveals its fruit. Or, to go with James03's preference, it is still efficacious in that it presents to man a choice and he sees two paths to take: virtue or sin, even if not efficacious in a salvific sense.

We don't get to redefine heresies simply because the redefinition is convenient as a scare tactic in the rhetoric. And that's exactly what Banezians attempt to do: bully into submission without putting forth a coherent argument and then they table pound and wave their hands when you call them on it.

That's all I have to say about that.
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Offline Justin Martyr

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2022, 12:23:48 AM »
No problem bumping old threads. There's a few much older than this I'd like to bump :lol:

As to the thrust of your post, my exact words were: helps oppose Semi-Pelagianism. It is indeed false that the other approved Catholic systems are Semi-Pelagian, and it would be a grave error, as was condemned by Clement VIII (?), to assert they are such.

However, unlike Thomism, the other systems are not nearly as capable at defending against Semi-Pelagianism, and are easily misconstrued by the less learned into Semi-Pelagianism. Ultimately, Semi-Pelagianism is a more grievous error than Calvinism. The latter misunderstands some details of the Gospel, while the latter rips out the very heart of the Gospel.
One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?
The Canticle of Canticles, 6:8-9

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal — who allow scandals to destroy faith —are guilty of spiritual suicide.
St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2022, 11:14:19 AM »
However, unlike Thomism, the other systems are not nearly as capable at defending against Semi-Pelagianism, and are easily misconstrued by the less learned into Semi-Pelagianism.

Only the most learned today know enough even to fall into the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism.
The less learned have never even heard the word "predestination."
The more learned believe that the entire concept of predestination is a Protestant heresy.

If you interviewed 100 Catholics on the street, what is the probability that you would find even a single person who understands the doctrine of Predestination?

Ultimately, Semi-Pelagianism is a more grievous error than Calvinism.

Yes.
 
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Offline Justin Martyr

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2022, 01:10:08 PM »
However, unlike Thomism, the other systems are not nearly as capable at defending against Semi-Pelagianism, and are easily misconstrued by the less learned into Semi-Pelagianism.

Only the most learned today know enough even to fall into the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism.
The less learned have never even heard the word "predestination."
The more learned believe that the entire concept of predestination is a Protestant heresy.

If you interviewed 100 Catholics on the street, what is the probability that you would find even a single person who understands the doctrine of Predestination?

This is all true, and the whole issue. Even though most would not know the terms, they live out their faith as if they were semi-pelagians. One need not be a Doctor in Theology to believe that, at the end of the day, he is the captain of his soul and the one who's own effort will save him. And if you were to ask most about free-will in relation to grace, you'd likely get a garbled answer that materially resembles Semi-Pelagianism, or outright Pelagianism.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 06:22:50 PM by Justin Martyr »
One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?
The Canticle of Canticles, 6:8-9

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal — who allow scandals to destroy faith —are guilty of spiritual suicide.
St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2022, 06:59:55 PM »
No problem bumping old threads. There's a few much older than this I'd like to bump :lol:

As to the thrust of your post, my exact words were: helps oppose Semi-Pelagianism. It is indeed false that the other approved Catholic systems are Semi-Pelagian, and it would be a grave error, as was condemned by Clement VIII (?), to assert they are such.

However, unlike Thomism, the other systems are not nearly as capable at defending against Semi-Pelagianism, and are easily misconstrued by the less learned into Semi-Pelagianism. Ultimately, Semi-Pelagianism is a more grievous error than Calvinism. The latter misunderstands some details of the Gospel, while the latter rips out the very heart of the Gospel.
Say whaaat!? Calvinism turns God into a monster who creates men and angels in order to send them to Hell. This is not just a 'misunderstanding'. Our Father who art in Heaven, who damns me because that is His eternal choice, and there is nothing I can do about it; is to to totally pervert not only the Gospel but the whole Bible.
As to S.P. No it doesn't "rip out the very heart of the Gospel"; since the problem of free will and God's grace is a difficult one that took many years even for Catholic theologians to work out; it over emphasizes man's free will, but it doesn't totally destroy the image of God.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 07:01:35 PM by Michael Wilson »
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2022, 01:59:52 PM »
Quote
That man chooses to reject God unless God helps man to choose him is just what man does.
To beat a dead horse,  :laugh:
This is what ultimately makes the Banezian system untenable; God gives man grace "a'', which man must respond to, in order to merit grace "b, without which (grace b), man will surely not respond to grace "a", and will surely perish (negative reprobation). But God does not give all men grace "b", because he has decreed before all foreseen merits or demerits of these (APM predestination), to only give grace "b" to some, not to all, and therefore those who do not receive grace "b" will infallibly perish.
Yet, responds the Banezian: "Grace b is contained in 'grace a', like the fruit in the flower"; correct, but said fruit will never develop from grace "a", without the watering of grace "b".
Here is Fr. Most in "Grace, Predestination and the Salvific Will of God" with the footnotes referencing Fr. Garigou Lagrange's works:
Quote
1) Efficacious grace is given if a man does not resist sufficient grace: 18". . . no one who has the use of reason is deprived of the efficacious grace required for salvation except for having, by his own fault, resisted a sufficient grace. . . ." But yet:19 ". . . efficacious grace is required that a man may not fail [to cooperate with] sufficient grace, that is, that he may not resist." Now the reason why efficacious grace is required for not resisting is this: 20". . . not to resist grace is already some good." But to do good, application is required: hence, the same impossibility as before still remains. Therefore, the Thomists say in one sense, that a man21 "although he has the ability not to resist [sufficient grace], nevertheless actually resists" if he does not also receive efficacious grace, because sufficient grace confers only the ability of not resisting, and does not add the application of that ability; but, in another sense, they say that man is not able not to resist because he cannot provide the application: ". . . [man] cannot, of himself alone, refrain from placing an obstacle [to sufficient grace] since this [not placing an obstacle] is good."
1) Efficacious grace is given if a man does not resist sufficient grace: 18". . . no one who has the use of reason is deprived of the efficacious grace required for salvation except for having, by his own fault, resisted a sufficient grace. . . ." But yet:19 ". . . efficacious grace is required that a man may not fail [to cooperate with] sufficient grace, that is, that he may not resist." Now the reason why efficacious grace is required for not resisting is this: 20". . . not to resist grace is already some good." But to do good, application is required: hence, the same impossibility as before still remains. Therefore, the Thomists say in one sense, that a man21 "although he has the ability not to resist [sufficient grace], nevertheless actually resists" if he does not also receive efficacious grace, because sufficient grace confers only the ability of not resisting, and does not add the application of that ability; but, in another sense, they say that man is not able not to resist because he cannot provide the application: ". . . [man] cannot, of himself alone, refrain from placing an obstacle [to sufficient grace] since this [not placing an obstacle] is good."
18    Garrigou-Lagrange, Perfection chretienne et contemplation, Editions de La Vie Spirituelle, Saint-Maximin. 1923, p. 96.
19    Garrigou-Lagrange, De gratia, pp. 179-180. The words cited are from an objection but Garrigou-Lagrange says on this objection (p. 180): "I concede the major; I concede the minor. . . ."
20    Ibid., p. 190 (emphasis his).
21    Ibid., p. 190 and p. 62 note 2 (emphasis mine).
Hopelessly circular.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2022, 02:06:38 PM »
J.M.
Quote
I affirm this as well. Free Will and God's efficient grace are not opposed, but always co-operate; and, the will co-operates freely. Likewise, Free Will and sufficient grace are not opposed either. Man simply refuses to co-operate with it unless moved by efficient grace. Just like how, I hold it is possible for one to be saved outside the visible bounds of the Church, but that (aside from Catechumens prior to baptism who have perfect contrition), none are in fact saved outside the Church's visible bounds. The example of me sawing off my arm is illustrative to this point. What is possible is different from what actually occur.
Would you consider babies baptized in false sects outside or inside of her visible boundaries?
Also, what if these same reach the age of reason, and do not realize that they are in a false sect? Assuming that they have not consciously rejected the Catholic faith, and have not committed a Mortal Sin, can they be saved?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Justin Martyr

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2022, 11:34:40 PM »
No problem bumping old threads. There's a few much older than this I'd like to bump :lol:

As to the thrust of your post, my exact words were: helps oppose Semi-Pelagianism. It is indeed false that the other approved Catholic systems are Semi-Pelagian, and it would be a grave error, as was condemned by Clement VIII (?), to assert they are such.

However, unlike Thomism, the other systems are not nearly as capable at defending against Semi-Pelagianism, and are easily misconstrued by the less learned into Semi-Pelagianism. Ultimately, Semi-Pelagianism is a more grievous error than Calvinism. The latter misunderstands some details of the Gospel, while the latter rips out the very heart of the Gospel.
Quote
Say whaaat!? Calvinism turns God into a monster who creates men and angels in order to send them to Hell. This is not just a 'misunderstanding'.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour,  and another unto dishonour?"

I don't think God would be a monster if Calvinism were true. His goodness would line up far less with goodness as we understand it, sure; but God is the standard by which we judge what is good in the first place. He is the Form of the Good.

Quote
Our Father who art in Heaven, who damns me because that is His eternal choice, and there is nothing I can do about it; is to to totally pervert not only the Gospel but the whole Bible.
As to S.P. No it doesn't "rip out the very heart of the Gospel"; since the problem of free will and God's grace is a difficult one that took many years even for Catholic theologians to work out; it over emphasizes man's free will, but it doesn't totally destroy the image of God.

Actual Semi-Pelagians turn initial justification into, at bottom, a human effort, and thus render the atonement as unnecessary beyond anything more than a mere help. Is not the atonement the heart of the Gospel?

I don't consider Molinism or the other approved schools Actual Semi-Pelagianism though, just less capable of fighting against it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 11:36:23 PM by Justin Martyr »
One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?
The Canticle of Canticles, 6:8-9

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal — who allow scandals to destroy faith —are guilty of spiritual suicide.
St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy
 

Offline Justin Martyr

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2022, 11:59:21 PM »
J.M.
Quote
I affirm this as well. Free Will and God's efficient grace are not opposed, but always co-operate; and, the will co-operates freely. Likewise, Free Will and sufficient grace are not opposed either. Man simply refuses to co-operate with it unless moved by efficient grace. Just like how, I hold it is possible for one to be saved outside the visible bounds of the Church, but that (aside from Catechumens prior to baptism who have perfect contrition), none are in fact saved outside the Church's visible bounds. The example of me sawing off my arm is illustrative to this point. What is possible is different from what actually occur.
Would you consider babies baptized in false sects outside or inside of her visible boundaries?
Also, what if these same reach the age of reason, and do not realize that they are in a false sect? Assuming that they have not consciously rejected the Catholic faith, and have not committed a Mortal Sin, can they be saved?

Babies baptized outside the juridical boundaries of the Church are still formal members of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Catholic Church; and in that sense they are within her visible boundaries. The use of the word visible was sloppy on my part in this context, as it tends to convey the impression that only those within the juridical visible boundaries of the Church will be saved.

To further clarify: I distinguish the Church into its Soul (the Holy Ghost), ontological Body (the Mystical Body of Christ), and it's Juridical Body (the Catholic Church considered as a hierarchical, canonical structure). These are all intimately and inseperably connected, but what joins one to each is distinct. For example: a manifest formal heretic is not a member of the Mystical Body or the Soul of the Church, but prior to a canonical judgement is still a member of the hierarchical canonical structure of the Church. The Soul corresponds to the invisible ontological reality, the Body to the visible ontological reality, and the Juridical Body to the legal reality.

As to your second question, I think there are two possibilities:

If they reach the age of reason and formally adhere to their parent's sect, then they cease to be formal members of the Visible Church. In most cases I don't imagine this would be the result of mortal sin, so hypothetically until they commit a mortal sin they would still be joined the to soul of the Church and linked to the Mystical Body, and could be saved; but as a theological opinion I don't think such a person would die prior to committing a mortal sin.

The other possibility is that which is discussed by St. Thomas in ST I-II Q89A6. If what he teaches here is true (and I think it very well might be), then the moment a baptized child of non-catholic parents reaches the age of reason they either direct themself towards God (in which case God will prevent them by his grace and providence from formally adhering to a non-catholic sect and guide them to the juridical bounds of the Church when He sees fit) or they will direct themself away from God, fall into mortal sin, formally adhere to a non-catholic sect, and lose the virtue of faith.

I consider the latter of these probabilities to be the more likely, and at present hold to it as a tentative theological opinion.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 12:06:57 AM by Justin Martyr »
One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?
The Canticle of Canticles, 6:8-9

While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal — who allow scandals to destroy faith —are guilty of spiritual suicide.
St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2022, 07:22:57 AM »
Hi Justin. I'm a Thomist too. I believe in APM Predestination but PPD (post previsa demerita /after foreseen demerits) Reprobation. Predestination is logically prior to merits because it causes them. But reprobation is  posterior to demerits because imo it is on account of them. So predestination is gratuitous, in advance of any foreseen merit, but reprobation is deserved, strictly on account of foreseen demerits.

This is impossible - APM predestination and PPD reprobation are contradictory. This is because APM predestination leaves out some people assuring they will be damned and it is certain APD (if they are not elected, they are necessarily reprobated, for there is no third option). Their lack of election APM makes their salvation metaphysically impossible, before God can reprobate them PPD. In other words, lack of election necessarily results in damnation - therefore, if election is APM, damnation is necessarily APD. Which is why the Thomist predestination is in its essence same as the Calvinist one.

I disagree: all those who are rejected being rejected only because of grave, obstinate, persistent demerits (mortal sins) does not imply that all those who are selected are selected only because of their merits; many with very little merits are also saved.

It's a bit like this: God is not running a job interview but an Adoption Agency. He wants to give us the grace of supernatural adoption by faith in Christ and Holy Baptism and make us His Children. Now, in a job interview, one is selected based on merits. But when God, as a Loving Father, supernaturally adopts children, He does not do so because of their merits - in fact, prior to their Baptism, they normally have none. How then could He have predestined them to Grace because of their merits?

Here is St. Thomas: "On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:5): "Not by works of justice which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." But as He saved us, so He predestined that we should be saved. Therefore, foreknowledge of merits is not the cause or reason of predestination." https://biblehub.com/library/aquinas/summa_theologica/whether_the_foreknowledge_of_merits.htm

Whereas a person even in the natural order, although he cannot yet merit, nevertheless can still sin mortally and thus be lost.

So, if God does not predestine because of merits, then what does He predestine based on? Simply out of His Goodness and Love; that's why He died for all - not some, as Calvinism holds - and gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. Hence, those who faithfully do His will, even in the natural order - but not because of any merits they have, but God's Goodness - will be given grace to be saved. We see a similar example of Cornelius in Acts 10, who gave alms, prayed and fasted, and thus was given grace to hear the Gospel, first from an Angel, and then St. Peter, and thus received Baptism and Salvation.

Now, if you say at least the Predestination to Glory is because of merits, I answer that firstly, (1) if Predestination to Grace was not because of merits, then neither is Predestination as a whole because of merits; and secondly, (2) Final Perseverance cannot be merited, and thus even Predestination to Glory is purely Gracious/gratuitous, an undeserved/unearned gift. That God rightly rejects some who go on sinning mortally beyond a point does not mean His Gift of Salvation as a whole (Justification+Sanctification+Perseverance) is any less gracious. Of course, Merits we earn/gain while in a State of Grace do deserve increased glory in Heaven, and also help predispose us to receiving the grace of final perseverance.

But, in spite of that, it remains true, that damnation as a whole is strictly deserved, while Salvation as a whole is gratuitous. So God reprobates because of foreseen mortal sins, but He does not predestine because of merits, but graciously/gratuitously.

St. Thomas again: "Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory. In another way, the effect of predestination may be considered in general. Thus, it is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him towards salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even the preparation for grace. For neither does this happen otherwise than by divine help, according to the prophet Jeremias (Lam.5:21): "convert us, O Lord, to Thee, and we shall be converted." Yet predestination has in this way, in regard to its effect, the goodness of God for its reason"

God Bless.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 07:27:05 AM by Xavier »
"He [His Grace Archbishop Lefebvre] exhorted them:

Quote from: +ABL
Make every effort to have the Mass of St. Pius V, but if it is impossible to find one within forty kilometers and if there is a pious priest who says the New Mass in as traditional a way as possible, it is good for you to assist at it to fulfill your Sunday obligation."

One can counter the dangers for the Faith through solid catechism:

Quote
Should all the world’s churches be emptied? I do not feel brave enough to say such a thing. I don’t want to encourage atheism."

Taken from: https://sspx.org/en/what-archbishop-lefebvre-said-about-new-mass

"O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, Save us from the Fires of Hell, lead all Souls to Heaven, especially those who are most in need of Thy Mercy". Please pray this all the time.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Election APM and the Universal Salvific Will
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2022, 05:16:06 PM »
J.M.
On the Calvinist idea of God predestining Angels and Men to Heaven or Hell without any consideration or chance of changing the choice:
Quote

I don't think God would be a monster if Calvinism were true. His goodness would line up far less with goodness as we understand it, sure; but God is the standard by which we judge what is good in the first place. He is the Form of the Good.
Our understanding of God's goodness, is based on His own revelation, the teaching of the Church, and the sense of right and wrong that God implants in the conscience of every man.
To say that God would create an Angel or man in order to damn them for all eternity, is wicked, a greater wickedness neither a man or Angel are capable of.
As for the above quote:
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Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour,  and another unto dishonour?"
Doesn't have to do with predestinating men and angels to Heaven or Hell, or else the Church would hold this as a revealed doctrine, and on the contrary she condemns "double -predestination". It has to do with the gratuitous selection of the Jews for their role as the people of the Messiah, as the descendants of Jacob; over that of the descendants of Esau.
On "semi-pelagianism":
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Actual Semi-Pelagians turn initial justification into, at bottom, a human effort, and thus render the atonement as unnecessary beyond anything more than a mere help. Is not the atonement the heart of the Gospel?
It posits that the man by his free will (w/o grace) can make the first movement towards God. It does contradict the absolute necessity of God's grace for all actions that are intrinsically supernatural; and when pushed to its logical conclusion, it does ultimately deny the necessity of the Redemption etc. However, the Semi-Ps, did not push their views to their logical conclusion; And their theory did not attribute to God a horrible crime or distort His goodness. S.P. Was more of a reaction to some of the excesses of the rhetoric of St. Augustine  in his polemics against the Pelagians, which seemed to deny the place of free-will in the economy of salvation. This has not all been worked out to everyone's satisfaction, even to the present day. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers